Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by mac Sat Sep 14, 2024 4:00 pm

Anniemillo1 wrote:

I agree Janhar, I keep saying to everyone, you can still say that you have achieved the SNU awards but not allowed to use them.

Do you mean: "......you can still say that you have achieved the SNU awards but YOU ARE not allowed to use them." ? If so, who/what body is DISALLOWING you? And how?

With reference to the tutors on the Psyche Accredited course, I have a BA in teaching and a CSNU from SNU in teaching (which I can't use now)

Why can't you use it (quote) "now"? (end quote) What has changed that you can't use it now as opposed to earlier?

May I ask for my own understanding what is 'Certificate' level as awarded by the SNU compared with your BA?

by notabigjump Sat Sep 14, 2024 4:07 pm

mac wrote:
Anniemillo1 wrote:Janhar wrote:

Re the SNU awards. You would still have your paper certificate to show you were awarded it. Everyone understands the SNU position of only recognising it if you stay in the SNU but everyone else would know you had earned it.... unless you had it removed for bad behaviour of course.

The following were actually mac's responses (muddled up when quoted above) :

"Those were points I made earlier.....

Would it really make any difference other than if a current certification/accreditation were demanded in a specific role?

Would one stop being competent at a previously recognised level JUST because an organisation said an award/certificate was being removed?

That's a high-handed, intimidatory approach to once-valued members, a ruse to keep 'em in line with an unenforceable, valueless diktat."

Agree with all of them Mac. However, as I remember some who took those awards were older, left school at 14 to work and didn't receive any educational qualifications at all. They meant the world to some of them.

by mac Sat Sep 14, 2024 4:39 pm

notabigjump wrote:
mac wrote:
Anniemillo1 wrote:Janhar wrote:

Re the SNU awards. You would still have your paper certificate to show you were awarded it. Everyone understands the SNU position of only recognising it if you stay in the SNU but everyone else would know you had earned it.... unless you had it removed for bad behaviour of course.

The following were actually mac's responses (muddled up when quoted above) :

"Those were points I made earlier.....

Would it really make any difference other than if a current certification/accreditation were demanded in a specific role?

Would one stop being competent at a previously recognised level JUST because an organisation said an award/certificate was being removed?

That's a high-handed, intimidatory approach to once-valued members, a ruse to keep 'em in line with an unenforceable, valueless diktat."

Agree with all of them Mac. However, as I remember some who took those awards were older, left school at 14 to work and didn't receive any educational qualifications at all. They meant the world to some of them.

I totally get that but what I meant was that ALL such qualifications/ awards/ certificates must SURELY be as valid now as they were when those gals and guys achieved them. It's preposterous for an organisation to tell someone that if they were to leave that organisation their achievements would then mean nothing - what arrogance that would be!

As I wrote earlier unless a qualification/award/accreditation were time-dependent, - ie it would expire and would need to be renewed to remain recognised - then it seems to me that somebody / some organisation is trying to pull a fast one.

Am I right or does anyone know something I'm failing to understand????

by notabigjump Sat Sep 14, 2024 4:40 pm

mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:
mac wrote:
Anniemillo1 wrote:Janhar wrote:

Re the SNU awards. You would still have your paper certificate to show you were awarded it. Everyone understands the SNU position of only recognising it if you stay in the SNU but everyone else would know you had earned it.... unless you had it removed for bad behaviour of course.

The following were actually mac's responses (muddled up when quoted above) :

"Those were points I made earlier.....

Would it really make any difference other than if a current certification/accreditation were demanded in a specific role?

Would one stop being competent at a previously recognised level JUST because an organisation said an award/certificate was being removed?

That's a high-handed, intimidatory approach to once-valued members, a ruse to keep 'em in line with an unenforceable, valueless diktat."

Agree with all of them Mac. However, as I remember some who took those awards were older, left school at 14 to work and didn't receive any educational qualifications at all. They meant the world to some of them.
I totally get that but what I meant was that ALL such qualifications/ awards/ certificates must SURELY be as valid now as they were when those gals and guys achieved them. It's preposterous for an organisation to tell someone that because if they were to leave that organisation their achievements would then mean nothing - what arrogance that would be!

As I wrote earlier unless a qualification/award/accreditation were time-dependent, - ie it would expire and would need to be renewed to remain recognised - then it seems to me that somebody / some organisation is trying to pull a fast one.

Am I right or does anyone know something I'm failing to understand????

I totally agree Mac.

by Lis Sat Sep 14, 2024 11:04 pm

Just to remind everyone - wasn't one of the tutor concerns about the edict of the SNU management that they could not use/mention/quote their status as an AFC tutor (and SNU certification holders) when running other activities elsewhere than the AFC.

In other words, they could not mention their "qualifications" as earned within the SNU as "evidence" of their skill level/abilities as mediums/teachers/trainers for courses or workshops outside the control of the SNU.

This would suggest that the SNU considers all SNU qualifications (and status) as entirely subject to membership of the SNU and regard usage/mention of all certifications as constrained within SNU activities be they at the AFC or at SNU Churches.

It is difficult to understand why even mention of hard-earned and costly certifications is denied to SNU members when offering core spiritualist training at other venues, or that those certifications are provisional on membership of the SNU.

A system of training resulting in certificate holders, being constrained in such a manner, and one denying the certificated person the right to retain their awards if they leave the SNU is, in my opinion, an appalling abuse of those who have worked hard to achieve those certifications and paid a lot of money in the process.

A piece of paper that you cannot use except within the SNU structure, reduces the validity of that certification. Outside of the SNU all that hard work becomes meaningless. That cannot be right.

A proper award/accreditation process, controlled by other than the SNU is what appears to be needed.

by Admin Sun Sep 15, 2024 2:45 am

notabigjump wrote:Confirmed. Lisa Dawson (Head of Governance for the SNU) and the SNU General Manager Rachael Loukes have resigned. The SNU were trying to keep it under wraps before the AGM, but it seems as if the NEC are losing the will with the president now.

If we tally the number of people who have left, are leaving or in exile - there will soon be no SNU or AFC.

It is time for this president to resign herself. This is disastrous for Spiritualism!

I think the debate about accreditation is fascinating and I will start a new thread about it. I think teaching involving theoretical and practical is worth while but not really on this topic.. Except where Lis's last post took it to a return to the 20 Tutors. There is less than two weeks before the AGM and the pressure needs to be kept on the core problems.

notabigjump was right to alert us it is hugely significant, this role is key when considering breaches like the invalid election or considering whether the Bye laws are following the Spirit of the Articles of Association. Given the AGM is going ahead under the backdrop of an improperly elected incoming President I doubt they had no other option, if they advised otherwise. But I guess that the NDA's will gag them. Unless of course the Companies House or Charities Commission investigate when the gags would be stripped off.

I see the SNU has reacted again

Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 21 Snau_s10

The problem here it is not unfair for the public to take an interest especially when departures are always unannounced and almost always with a secrecy gag on the departees. We are aware that there are outstanding actions against the SNU and NEC over employment issues from departures beyond those issues that surround the 20 Tutors.

I doubt our interest causes the same level of distress on the employees than the reasons they were leaving their jobs and decided action was needed. It is fair comment to look at these changes, especially given the roles these two people played, at a senior level of the organisation especially in relation to Bye Law Changes, legality of actions and Corporate Responsibility.

I am sure the idea is to tough it out and hope all this goes away, it looks like that, maybe even a legal AGM Quorom, of only 20, will allow the motion for a 4 year term to pass, so judicious use of the ejection and gag rules in the new AGM standing orders may even smooth it through.

Just a reminder to the NEC, if you vote to approve that action it could come home and catch you out even after the AGM, There is no point me reiterating the personal risk you take, if you take an action which is not within your powers to do.

Mac can I advise one step no one dare to, proposes a vote of no confidence I have my suspicions that the gag and eject in the standing orders would be enacted very quickly disconnecting your video remotely.

OK what else can be done?

Now I am busy today after a waterfall in the kitchen making a Sunday Plumber call out needed (Have used our one for 37 years now so he is effectively a friend). I also have to get ready for our Sunday Meeting (sorry we do not call it a divine Service)

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 7:26 am

I spotted the SNU's posting yesterday evening - Saturday 14th - while I was watching Strictly. I couldn't understand it and still can't as there are so few details. Just the usual bleating and asking for members to be kind.....

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 7:35 am

quote: "Mac can I advise one step no one dare to, proposes a vote of no confidence I have my suspicions that the gag and eject in the standing orders would be enacted very quickly disconnecting your video remotely."

I did later edit my earlier posting to add a couple of wink emoticons to show I wasn't being totally serious. Razz

It's WAY easier to get rid of someone saying "the wrong thing" when you're administrating a Zoom link. I would totally expect to be disconnected from the proceedings tout d'suite if I were to propose such a motion.

I also said I'm deliberating whether I should even waste my time on the upcoming farce - that's my personal view of the future AGM proceedings - or do my customary Saturday morning parkrun and/or spend the weekend away in my caravan before winter arrives in the UK at the beginning of October. LOL

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 7:55 am

quote: "I think the debate about accreditation is fascinating and I will start a new thread about it. I think teaching involving theoretical and practical is worth while but not really on this topic.. Except where Lis's last post took it to a return to the 20 Tutors. There is less than two weeks before the AGM and the pressure needs to be kept on the core problems."

As seasoned forum users we are well aware how a topic can head away from what started the conversation. I'm probably the worst for reminding folk to try to stay on-topic! lol

But the discussions about the threat of nullifying accreditation and removing awards/certificates illustrates just how high-handed the SNU can be towards caring and dedicated members.

The whole of the SNU's operations need revising - duh! That's a matter linking directly to the mistreatment of the 20 tutors, the events bringing this whole conversation to life weeks ago.

A dedicated thread to consider the awards system might well be helpful but it would be even more useful to hear from more of those directly affected/involved.

They're out on Facebook where conversations are often rambling and unstructured but a proper discussion needs the proper structure of a website's forum pages.

The AGM ain't far off although it's looking like nothing can be done by the membership to change what appears inevitable. What a sorry state of affairs...... Sad

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:01 am

Whether this conversation was ever, or still is, being read by members of the NEC we do not know.

It would though be helpful to them to be aware of its contents just in case they're too isolated to know what (at least some) SNU members are talking about and whether they as Directors should be carefully considering their personal responsibilities and accountabilities.

Maybe those individuals have checked their positions. Perhaps they'll be just fine; perhaps they won't.... Question

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:10 am

quote: "
It is difficult to understand why even mention of hard-earned and costly certifications is denied to SNU members when offering core spiritualist training at other venues, or that those certifications are provisional on membership of the SNU."

Before this thread kicked off I would likely have said similar but given what I've read, given the questions I've asked and the replies given, the way certification and accreditation work I NOW find totally understandable. It's a closed shop operation.

Good God how has this been allowed to continue the way it apparently has, for as long as it apparently has? And it's been that way under previous Presidents and NEC members.

I have no idea how such a perverse system has been tolerated for such a very long time - SHIDAD!

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:24 am

Good luck, Jim and Lis, with the waterfall in your kitchen!

I experienced a similar gusher last winter just after my wife and I returned to Arizona when a cheapo Chinese plastic tap fitting - holding back water straight from the mains at 80psi - fractured and blew off INSIDE the kitchen sink cabinet!!!

We were moments away from leaving our home for the day, the result of which would have seen it flooded from edge to edge and end to end.

THEN I HAD to fix things because there's a dearth of trades in town as they're all building thousands of new homes for the recent huge influx of construction and development workers in the nearby electric vehicle industries.

Such fun doing stuff yourself at my age.... Razz

by Janhar Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:13 am

It can’t be a general rule about not using AFC credentials outside. There may have been specific objections about some things the tutors were promoting, outside the box as it were, which were not strictly SNU approved. In other words, breaking the mold. Paul Jacobs mentions his connection to the Arthur Findlay College and his tutor role there in many of his activities outside the College. It was even referred to in the past tense when he left for a while and opened his own school.His CSNU has also been mentioned because I have seen that at least once in an advert for an activity of his outside the college. Others may write the blurb on his behalf but clearly he didn’t prevent it. It is normal for AFC tutors to mention those SNU credentials elsewhere. I think the criteria may be around what they are doing when they use them.

by Janhar Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:23 am

Janhar wrote:It can’t be a general rule about not using AFC credentials outside. There may have been specific objections about some things the tutors were promoting, outside the box as it were, which were not strictly SNU approved. In other words, breaking the mold. Paul Jacobs mentions his connection to the Arthur Findlay College and his tutor role there in many of his activities outside the College. It was even referred to in the past tense when he left for a while and opened his own school.His CSNU has also been mentioned because I have seen that at least once in an advert for an activity of his outside the college. Others may write the blurb on his behalf but clearly he didn’t prevent it. It is normal for AFC tutors to mention those SNU credentials elsewhere. I think the criteria may be around what they are doing when they use them.

So what this all boils down to, is perhaps more to do with the stranglehold they put on tutors to stick within the accepted framework. That is something I personally would not accept and is the reason I left the SNU….though in fact I willingly chose their framework to work by, but I was not going to have it dictated by them, on principle.

by Janhar Sun Sep 15, 2024 9:57 am

Janhar wrote:
Janhar wrote:It can’t be a general rule about not using AFC credentials outside. There may have been specific objections about some things the tutors were promoting, outside the box as it were, which were not strictly SNU approved. In other words, breaking the mold. Paul Jacobs mentions his connection to the Arthur Findlay College and his tutor role there in many of his activities outside the College. It was even referred to in the past tense when he left for a while and opened his own school.His CSNU has also been mentioned because I have seen that at least once in an advert for an activity of his outside the college. Others may write the blurb on his behalf but clearly he didn’t prevent it. It is normal for AFC tutors to mention those SNU credentials elsewhere. I think the criteria may be around what they are doing when they use them.
So what this all boils down to, is perhaps more to do with the stranglehold they put on tutors to stick within the accepted framework. That is something I personally would not accept and is the reason I left the SNU….though in fact I willingly chose their framework to work by, but I was not going to have it dictated by them, on principle.

A Rare admin edit I like your thoughts but I said we would talk about this in a new topic. It is a total distraction to the main issues on this thread . If we end up with the person who caused all these problems getting a 4 year term with the new standing orders our discussions are like smoke in the wind dissipated and of little impact

by mac Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:16 am

As Jim wrote earlier, the issue of credentials, certificates, awards and everything else associated with them is important but they're just one issue out of many issues surrounding the overall operation of the SNU and the Findlay College.

This thread began by referring to the effective gagging of the 20 tutors when they complained formally about the conditions under which they worked and the ongoing issues since then, none of them looked at let alone resolved.

The matter of certification is a separate and important one but perhaps deserves to be considered in its own context and away from the many general and potentially serious issues such as fundraising, Directors' responsibilities, irregular voting procedures etc.

These latter matters affect everyone associated in any way with the SNU, the AFC and all incorporated Spiritualist churches.

by Admin Sun Sep 15, 2024 11:20 am

I have edited Janhar's post, apologies for this. It is valuable to discuss the issues of accreditation and education but no longer on this thread, when it distracts from the very crucial issues we need to follow up

by Admin Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:14 pm

notabigjump wrote:[b]Confirmed. Lisa Dawson (Head of Governance for the SNU) and the SNU General Manager Rachael Loukes have resigned. The SNU were trying to keep it under wraps before the AGM, but it seems as if the NEC are losing the will with the president now.

I think people do not realise the importance of these roles Head of Governance has a role to ensure the NEC and SNU stays within the law, like stopping invalid elections and actions outside the powers of the NEC. The General Manager to ensure it operates ethically and within the rules. Why would they resign?

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 6:20 am

Should You Lose Awards if you leave the SNU or other Group

I promised to open a new topic about this.

Here it is https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2498-should-you-lose-awards-if-you-leave-the-snu-or-other-group#22167

However this topic started with the 20 Tutors and we still find them in a difficult predicament.

Clearly the status of the 20 Tutors still hangs in the air just two weeks before the AGM.

The gag orders remain in place but there seems to have been no progress in the Arbitration. So what happens now, if for some inexplicable reason, the current President and, the existing NEC, manage to keep on pushing through reforms at the AGM and ignoring the invalid election process. Well it would appear they retain power and the Tutor issue is well and truly in their power to handle as they like.

It has always been my expectation that the President and new Course Convenor never really intended to change direction. It looks a little like my way or the highway, back down and sign the contract or else.

The question is what else. Can they remain in the SNU? and what happens to their certificates, awards and SNU qualifications if they are forced out (or expelled)? Well we know they are gone, I suppose they could unofficially claim them but with the current rules how long before the SNU start pursuing people who use certificates that have been lost., or indeed insisting that Churches only use certificates or in training mediums.

This one can happily move onto the new thread as a conceptual discussion of a more acceptable way to achieve accreditation which could transfer between organisations.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 8:19 am

Admin wrote:
notabigjump wrote:[b]Confirmed. Lisa Dawson (Head of Governance for the SNU) and the SNU General Manager Rachael Loukes have resigned. The SNU were trying to keep it under wraps before the AGM, but it seems as if the NEC are losing the will with the president now.

I think people do not realise the importance of these roles Head of Governance has a role to ensure the NEC and SNU stays within the law, like stopping invalid elections and actions outside the powers of the NEC. The General Manager to ensure it operates ethically and within the rules. Why would they resign?

Why would they resign? Perhaps because they have found their roles unworkable and now untenable given the various problems we've been made aware of in this long thread......

You can only apply rules effectively if those supposedly governed by them heed what you do. It's no different from most rules and laws. Most folk will respect them but some will not. Unless there is a way to effectively enforce those rules/laws the few may just tough it out and get away with it.

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 9:07 am

It cannot be more than speculation why a person chooses to resign unless they tell you themself. However I can say why I would resign from a job assuming I was previously happy in the role. I would resign for any of the following reasons:
1) I was being blamed for my employer’s mistakes.
2) Resignation was a form of public statement that I did not want to be associated with my employer’s bad decisions and needed to avoid blame for those decisions being put upon me.
3) I disliked the person or people I worked with and wanted to be free of them.
4) My stress level was so high from the job that my personal life was messed up by it.
5) My employer did not like me arguing with them and sacked me but agreed to call it resignation.

Take your pick. These people may have other reasons of course, I am just saying what could make me personally leave a job.

We can speculate for ever but we will not have the truth unless those individuals choose to reveal it….and why should they? Just because we want to know? I think not.

It is understandable though that SNU members will be deeply concerned about it. I am concerned myself and I am not even a member. They are, however, like a branch of my family that I don’t gel with. Affection remains.

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:00 am

Janhar wrote:It cannot be more than speculation

We can speculate for ever but we will not have the truth unless those individuals choose to reveal it….and why should they? Just because we want to know? I think not.

It is understandable though that SNU members will be deeply concerned about it. I am concerned myself and I am not even a member. They are, however, like a branch of my family that I don’t gel with. Affection remains.

While I may agree with you generally I believe there is enough on this topic to suggest that their are very real and specific problems with the way the SNU and NEC are currently managing business. Especially when the Corporate Governance Manager resigns soon after we hear that the elective auditor has declared the Presidential Election is invalid .

Now that is big surely.

I have also heard shocking stories of those who have commented against the official story being cut off by people who were friends, losing bookings at churches and finding long term friends who would always offer a lift, leaving them ti get home on their own.

Not in anyway a good look for the new SNU.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:01 am

Admin wrote:

Clearly the status of the 20 Tutors still hangs in the air just two weeks before the AGM.

The gag orders remain in place but there seems to have been no progress in the Arbitration. So what happens now, if for some inexplicable reason, the current President and, the existing NEC, manage to keep on pushing through reforms at the AGM and ignoring the invalid election process. Well it would appear they retain power and the Tutor issue is well and truly in their power to handle as they like.

It appears to me that their status isn't even in limbo - the 20 tutors no longer have any status within the Findlay College - end of. They've been thanked for their previous service, wished well (however insincerely) and sent on their way. They're still gagged it appears so the full story won't become officially known. The bods in power are doing what our Royals often do - they're sayin' nowt.... You can't discuss or fall out with 'em and you can't challenge 'em as they're not engaging and they're not gonna do in future - not 'til they're ready to. Pretty nifty tactics, I'd say. Rolling Eyes

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:07 am

Admin wrote:
Janhar wrote:It cannot be more than speculation

We can speculate for ever but we will not have the truth unless those individuals choose to reveal it….and why should they? Just because we want to know? I think not.

It is understandable though that SNU members will be deeply concerned about it. I am concerned myself and I am not even a member. They are, however, like a branch of my family that I don’t gel with. Affection remains.

While I may agree with you generally I believe there is enough on this topic to suggest that their are very real and specific problems with the way the SNU and NEC are currently managing business. Especially when the Corporate Governance Manager resigns soon after we here that the elective auditor has declared the Presidential Election is invalid .

Now that is big surely.

I have also heard shocking stories of those who have commented against the official story being cut off by people who were friends, losing bookings at churches and finding long term friends who would always offer a lift, leaving them ti get home on their own.

Not in anyway a good look for the new SNU.

Agree with all you say, totally.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:10 am

Admin wrote:

I have also heard shocking stories of those who have commented against the official story being cut off by people who were friends, losing bookings at churches and finding long term friends who would always offer a lift, leaving them ti get home on their own.

It's times like these when you find out who your true friends are and are not. It also shows how influenced churches have been if they're cancelling or just not giving bookings to once-regular mediums. Maybe it's at times like this that linking to independent Spiritualist churches should be considered. Maybe their supporters/congregations don't much care for the SNU either.... Question

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