Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:18 am

quote: "We can speculate for ever but we will not have the truth unless those individuals choose to reveal it….and why should they? Just because we want to know? I think not." Why should they? Because their resignation has a much wider significance than their just falling out with an employer or being sacked for whatever reason - always assuming it isn't just a straightforward employment conditions matter.

Given what's already been heard - unofficially in the main - one reason that senior staff might want to explain why is because it has such major ramifications - potentially. 'Course if the bods in power are going to just "tough it out" and say nowt anyway then it wouldn't make any practical difference to any eventual outcome. interesting times alright..... Wink

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:21 am

It is also more than little scary to find that the SNU seem to be looking to find out how the Keith Parsons (ex DC Chirman for Essex I believe, resigned) death of deocracy, about the new stanfing orders for general meetings, was made public.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:21 am

Anybody noticed? It's only the same few individuals taking part in this discussion. Where is everybody else airing their views? Question

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:30 am

Good question Mac I wonder if people are scared of the inquisition

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 11:51 am

Admin wrote:Good question Mac I wonder if people are scared of the inquisition

maybe

A few are writing on one individual's Facebook page but that leaves a helluva lot who are saying nothing. Don't they know? Do they care if they DO know?

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:06 pm

I really do not know Mac, it is scary that, when everything you can see and read, tells you that there is a problem, people remain silent. I think some see no alternative leader, some were scarred by the previous President. However, what seems to be a new way of life, people just go along with things hoping there will not be a problem. Maybe it's to hard to fight back and The SNU seem to have unlimited resources for legal battles, even if that expenditure is disallowed by the Charities commission.

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:11 pm

It is also hard when every critical thing, or politically incorrect for the NEC, posted on the SNU site is s removed, whilst those supporting them are posted. I suspect, from comments I hear, that the same m is true with the SNU IM page and the AFC page.

Rupert Murdoch always said that he controlled how people would vote and think. The SNU PR team appear to have learnt well control the narrative and keep it tight.

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:33 pm

mac wrote:maybe

A few are writing on one individual's Facebook page but that leaves a helluva lot who are saying nothing. Don't they know? Do they care if they DO know?[/color]

Perhaps they are waiting to see if the AGM throws a bit more light. In my opinion this matter will be decided by the 20 tutors. They will either be under advisement by their legal representatives (if they have them and I suspect they might) or they are waiting until there is new management. Eventually, if not sooner, there will be. Meanwhile, if they are slung out of the SNU by this management it can be overturned by others when leadership eventually changes, unless the 20 tutors decide they are done with the SNU. Do not think they are vanquished. Far from it. They are in full control of their own futures. My guess is that their complaint is so serious that win or lose they will be vindicated by the majority (of course there will always be the Paul and Jackie fan club) once they are able to release details.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:53 pm

Admin wrote:I really do not know Mac, it is scary that, when everything you can see and read, tells you that there is a problem, people remain silent. I think some see no alternative leader, some were scarred by the previous President. However, what seems to be a new way of life, people just go along with things hoping there will not be a problem. Maybe it's to hard to fight back and The SNU seem to have unlimited resources for legal battles, even if that expenditure is disallowed by the Charities commission.

There's also the possibility that whatever happens for many and perhaps most individuals the running of the SNU and its college has no relevance.... And as you point out the SNU will have deep pockets should the officers decide they want to dip into 'em to put the scare on one or more individuals.

What a rotten way to run an allegedly spiritual body, eh? Rolling Eyes

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 12:58 pm

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:maybe

A few are writing on one individual's Facebook page but that leaves a helluva lot who are saying nothing. Don't they know? Do they care if they DO know?[/color]
Perhaps they are waiting to see if the AGM throws a bit more light. In my opinion this matter will be decided by the 20 tutors. They will either be under advisement by their legal representatives (if they have them and I suspect they might) or they are waiting until there is new management. Eventually, if not sooner, there will be. Meanwhile, if they are slung out of the SNU by this management it can be overturned by others when leadership eventually changes, unless the 20 tutors decide they are done with the SNU. Do not think they are vanquished. Far from it. They are in full control of their own futures. My guess is that their complaint is so serious that win or lose they will be vindicated by the majority (of course there will always be the Paul and Jackie fan club) once they are able to release details.

Waiting to see if the AGM sheds a bit more light? A bit more than what? We already know the motions to be voted on and the practices already changed by standing order. They'll be accepted unless they're voted down and there seems precious little prospect of that happening.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:03 pm

Admin wrote:It is also hard when every critical thing, or politically incorrect for the NEC, posted on the SNU site is s removed, whilst those supporting them are posted. I suspect, from comments I hear, that the same m is true with the SNU IM page and the AFC page.

Rupert Murdoch always said that he controlled how people would vote and think. The SNU PR team appear to have learnt well control the narrative and keep it tight.

It's pointless trying to use a Facebook page that exists for and is tightly controlled by the body it belongs to. A conversation might be held on a neutral page but what would that achieve anyway - so late in this process? Four years down the road perhaps things will be different when the President has created a super SNU and College that look after all its members - yeah, right!

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 1:32 pm

mac wrote:Waiting to see if the AGM sheds a bit more light? A bit more than what? We already know the motions to be voted on and the practices already changed by standing order. They'll be accepted unless they're voted down and there seems precious little prospect of that happening.[/color]

A bit more light on whether the tutors are sacked already (which would change nothing regards their complaint, which we can assume is ongoing as long as we have this radio silence about it) and I am expecting some kind of shocking announcement about goodness knows what... feeling it in my bones. Yes, all may continue as it is following the AGM but it will not be over until the 20 tutors speak. Even though they have to stick to that which they can prove, they told us they have that proof.

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:46 pm

Admin wrote:Good question Mac I wonder if people are scared of the inquisition

Ha! The police are outside my house…..only joking. Perhaps only the oldies are brave enough. I am shortly to be 78.

Or perhaps that’s why we are not worth answering….

by notabigjump Mon Sep 16, 2024 2:58 pm

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:Waiting to see if the AGM sheds a bit more light? A bit more than what? We already know the motions to be voted on and the practices already changed by standing order. They'll be accepted unless they're voted down and there seems precious little prospect of that happening.[/color]
A bit more light on whether the tutors are sacked already (which would change nothing regards their complaint, which we can assume is ongoing as long as we have this radio silence about it) and I am expecting some kind of shocking announcement about goodness knows what... feeling it in my bones. Yes, all may continue as it is following the AGM but it will not be over until the 20 tutors speak. Even though they have to stick to that which they can prove, they told us they have that proof.

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.

by wattie Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:21 pm

notabigjump wrote:Confirmed. Lisa Dawson (Head of Governance for the SNU) and the SNU General Manager Rachael Loukes have resigned. The SNU were trying to keep it under wraps before the AGM, but it seems as if the NEC are losing the will with the president now.

If we tally the number of people who have left, are leaving or in exile - there will soon be no SNU or AFC.

It is time for this president to resign herself. This is disastrous for Spiritualism!

I note that the following statement is still displayed on the SNU website:

An announcement will be made at the start of this year’s AGM in respect of Any Other Business (‘AOB’), but in order to not preclude anyone, for this first year, people can email any other general business to general manager, Rachael Loukes, on rachael.loukes@snu.org.uk no later than 11am on the day of the meeting.

This would seem to be redundant if the lady in question has now resigned. Where, I wonder, should such submissions now be sent to?

by notabigjump Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:23 pm

wattie wrote:
notabigjump wrote:Confirmed. Lisa Dawson (Head of Governance for the SNU) and the SNU General Manager Rachael Loukes have resigned. The SNU were trying to keep it under wraps before the AGM, but it seems as if the NEC are losing the will with the president now.

If we tally the number of people who have left, are leaving or in exile - there will soon be no SNU or AFC.

It is time for this president to resign herself. This is disastrous for Spiritualism!

I note that the following statement is still displayed on the SNU website:

An announcement will be made at the start of this year’s AGM in respect of Any Other Business (‘AOB’), but in order to not preclude anyone, for this first year, people can email any other general business to general manager, Rachael Loukes, on rachael.loukes@snu.org.uk no later than 11am on the day of the meeting.

This would seem to be redundant if the lady in question has now resigned. Where, I wonder, should such submissions now be sent to?

They would have to work their notice period. I would still send it there.

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:25 pm

notabigjump wrote:

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.

Thanks for that. I thought something like that might be the case

by Janhar Mon Sep 16, 2024 3:34 pm

"

notabigjump wrote:

They would have to work their notice period. I would still send it there.

I agree, and anyway all SNU emails, whoever they are addressed to, should be accessible to the person who administrates the SNU email hosting settings.

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 6:03 pm

Janhar wrote:
A bit more light on whether the tutors are sacked already (which would change nothing regards their complaint, which we can assume is ongoing as long as we have this radio silence about it) and I am expecting some kind of shocking announcement about goodness knows what... feeling it in my bones. Yes, all may continue as it is following the AGM but it will not be over until the 20 tutors speak. Even though they have to stick to that which they can prove, they told us they have that proof.

I've already put the (rhetorical) question asking if the gagging order is - in effect - a forever gag on them.

If they've signed to say nowt without an end date to their agreement then they're stuck with it. Perhaps the only way they'd be able to disclose the details (legally) would be if the other party releases them from the agreement. But I hope you're right and that there's "something in the air" and about to break.

We'll see.... Wink

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 6:07 pm

Janhar wrote:
Admin wrote:Good question Mac I wonder if people are scared of the inquisition

Ha! The police are outside my house…..only joking. Perhaps only the oldies are brave enough. I am shortly to be 78.

Or perhaps that’s why we are not worth answering….

Oh! You're my senior by a few months. So often I'm the oldest fart writing on forum boards!! Maybe you're right that only when you get old enough do you stop caring quite as much....? And maybe why we're generally disregarded! lol

by mac Mon Sep 16, 2024 6:21 pm

[quote="notabigjump"]

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.

Yes indeed getting together facts along with opinions/statements takes time. The tutors have withdrawn their services and that's intended as a temporary situation; until it's not. One side of the dispute intends their withdrawal as a temporary measure but what happens if the other side chooses not to return to the former arrangement, one might wonder? That's when their employment contracts determine what either side can - or can't - do at that point. That's no doubt why specialist representation could be needed, something one side can pay for using Union funds whereas the other has to pay privately or hope for pro bono.

by MoMer Tue Sep 17, 2024 1:50 am

I have been wanting to add to this thread for weeks, however, I have wanted to contribute rationally and not from my emotions. I have been angry at so much of what has been/is happening for weeks (actually longer if I’m honest but the weeks since the tutors dispute has been the catalyst for most of it). I wonder if other people may not be joining in for the same reason? I am so thankful for this thread, for it highlighting the wrong doings that are going on within the SNU and the AFC. Also for bringing to light the many things that aren’t legally allowed to be done. It’s vital that the members know. It’s surprising how many members have little to no understanding of, or interest in, the bye-laws and the correct procedures for how things should be run. I have taken an interest and I still struggle to understand some of the legalities of a lot of it. It can be a minefield, so to a degree I can understand people’s apathy. However, as a member, is it not important to take an interest in what is happening? If things are being run correctly and within the law? We have a responsibility.

I’m in some way, surprised at how much all this has affected me emotionally, I have cried, feeling both hurt (mostly for those who are being mistreated or threatened), I have also cried with frustration at the wrong doings. I know that a lot of people have gone quiet because of the threat of legal action, I totally understand. The “powers that be” are relying on people being afraid to speak up, therefore the threats and even on occasion, the follow through of the threat with legal letters actually being sent, have silenced the unhappy. They bank on no one having the funds to fight them down the legal route and let’s face it, how many could afford it? I just hope that the right people are made aware that these letters are being sent and it is checked that they have the Charities Commission’s permission to use funds for such actions.

I could go on all day about all the things that have got my blood boiling, all of them have been mentioned in this thread already, so I won’t bore you with repeats. I just wanted to add my voice to the disgruntled, disappointed, disillusioned, unhappy, frustrated, hurt and angry voices that have already spoken up. I am an individual member (not sure for how long, my feeling is to walk away but, I am being asked to think before making knee jerk reactions, so I am trying to but not making any promises), I just can’t see the value of being a member anymore. It would seem that certain people are more interested in having power, than they are in serving the members and the religion of Spiritualism. There is no humility whatsoever (or at least none that is visible if her campaign is anything to go by) all her claims of “being of service” “of being there for the churches” don’t make it so. Yes, of course the churches are a vital component of our Union, that goes without saying, I fully support the churches, I serve the churches as a medium but, they should not be the ONLY focus, there are many members who are not attached to any church, whatever their reasons are for that, it should NEVER invalidate their voice, there are also a lot of non members who attend the AFC, this affects them greatly too, should their voices not be heard?. And, does throwing a small amount (in the grand scheme of things) of money to a church actually save it? Or, does it just make a certain someone look good and pretty much secure them five votes? Is the President’s Fund there to help the churches or is it because she can’t claim wages from the union for her president’s role AND for teaching at the AFC? I don’t fully know the legalities but I would guess not? For an organisation that SHOULD pride itself on diversity and inclusion there’s ever such a lot of cronyism going on, I mean, even the ordinary director on the NEC, that was given the portfolio for Diversity and Inclusion stepped down from her position, surely that, along with everything else, should ring alarm bells? The NEC has, I’m sure, never had such a huge turnover as it has this last two years and few months, between people walking away or being nudged out. Then we look at the tutors (this I do get emotional about because, some of those twenty have guided, supported and nurtured my development for years, they have inspired me to always strive to do better for the Spirit World), there has been a lot of speculation about the why’s etc but, I don’t need to know the details of their dispute, especially if it could jeopardise their legal standing, just to satisfy my curiosity, to know that they haven’t taken this decision lightly, and certainly not without good cause. Their statements have said that they want the truth to be heard and, that when they are able to, they will release the details. It’s not too far a stretch to recognise that the ones doing the silencing surely have the most to lose? And why is that? They don’t employ the members, they can’t use bully tactics to get everyone to say that they agree with them or to silence the ones who do disagree. The members employ them and surely have more rights than we are being told that we have now? I don’t have a personal complaint, or believe me I would have made it but, I don’t like what I see being done to the people that are being wronged and I don’t like the blatant disregard of the rules, bye-laws and articles of association, not to mention people’s feelings, emotions, positions and livelihoods. I don’t know how all this will pan out, I pray that all the valid complaints will be upheld, I hope that where wrongdoings have been brought to the attention of the Charities Commission and Companies House, they will be dealt with swiftly, effectively and fairly. Mostly, I hope that those responsible for decimating the reputation of the SNU and the AFC, for breaking hearts, rules and laws, will be held accountable. I will be using my vote to go against anything that will make it easier for Jackie Wright to do any more damage than she has already done and I plead with all other members to do the same, if you are as unhappy and uncomfortable with what you see as I am. In the meantime, I, like most others, can only sit back and wait and watch, with a great hope for a favourable outcome. While I may not have been very vocal on this thread until now, I assure you that I have been in “real life” and will continue to do so.

I have “gone on” a bit more than I wanted to in this comment, so I apologise for my waffling but, it is something that I am passionate about and what I am seeing and feeling concerns me greatly.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:05 am

mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.
Yes indeed getting together facts along with opinions/statements takes time. The tutors have withdrawn their services and that's intended as a temporary situation; until it's not. One side of the dispute intends their withdrawal as a temporary measure but what happens if the other side chooses not to return to the former arrangement, one might wonder? That's when their employment contracts determine what either side can - or can't - do at that point. That's no doubt why specialist representation could be needed, something one side can pay for using Union funds whereas the other has to pay privately or hope for pro bono.

I don’t think there is an employment contract. They are self employed and get contracted to run specific courses. Not sure there is one in place at the moment as didn’t they refuse to sign the new one? The gag is for the duration of the enquiry into the complaint. When that is settled….or not…whichever is the case, the enquiry is over and so is the current gag, I presume…..unless both sides agree to an indefinite one as part of a new agreement. However, the tutors did say that they would make sure nothing got brushed under the carpet.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:14 am

Well said MoMer. Good to have you here.

by Admin Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:42 am

Janhar wrote:Well said MoMer. Good to have you here.

I agree with Janhar; MoMer, well said and thanks for joining in.

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