Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by Admin Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:46 am

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.
Yes indeed getting together facts along with opinions/statements takes time. The tutors have withdrawn their services and that's intended as a temporary situation; until it's not. One side of the dispute intends their withdrawal as a temporary measure but what happens if the other side chooses not to return to the former arrangement, one might wonder? That's when their employment contracts determine what either side can - or can't - do at that point. That's no doubt why specialist representation could be needed, something one side can pay for using Union funds whereas the other has to pay privately or hope for pro bono.
I don’t think there is an employment contract. They are self employed and get contracted to run specific courses. Not sure there is one in place at the moment as didn’t they refuse to sign the new one? The gag is for the duration of the enquiry into the complaint. When that is settled….or not…whichever is the case, the enquiry is over and so is the current gag, I presume…..unless both sides agree to an indefinite one as part of a new agreement. However, the tutors did say that they would make sure nothing got brushed under the carpet.

Not having seen teh previous contract I cannot say that their previous agreement was as self employed. However, although an employer attempts to classify things that way, the way they performed theirduties on the past and the earlier agreement may have created an implied contract of employment, one that have them protection in the role.

by mac Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:48 am

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.
Yes indeed getting together facts along with opinions/statements takes time. The tutors have withdrawn their services and that's intended as a temporary situation; until it's not. One side of the dispute intends their withdrawal as a temporary measure but what happens if the other side chooses not to return to the former arrangement, one might wonder? That's when their employment contracts determine what either side can - or can't - do at that point. That's no doubt why specialist representation could be needed, something one side can pay for using Union funds whereas the other has to pay privately or hope for pro bono.
I don’t think there is an employment contract. They are self employed and get contracted to run specific courses. Not sure there is one in place at the moment as didn’t they refuse to sign the new one?

Based on what I'd 'heard' at the very start of this sorry business it did appear the tutors were not employees of the College hence there might not have been any formal employment contracts. It also appears the tutors were considered to be self-employed workers (presumably) on specific short-time contracts.

The gag is for the duration of the enquiry into the complaint. When that is settled….or not…whichever is the case, the enquiry is over and so is the current gag, I presume…..unless both sides agree to an indefinite one as part of a new agreement. However, the tutors did say that they would make sure nothing got brushed under the carpet.

The terms of the NDA aren't known other than to those involved - unless you know for a fact this is wrong.

The way I understand how NDAs work is that the agreements are permanently binding and breaking confidentiality might lead to an individual facing legal action.

by mac Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:53 am

Admin wrote:
I don’t think there is an employment contract. They are self employed and get contracted to run specific courses. Not sure there is one in place at the moment as didn’t they refuse to sign the new one? The gag is for the duration of the enquiry into the complaint. When that is settled….or not…whichever is the case, the enquiry is over and so is the current gag, I presume…..unless both sides agree to an indefinite one as part of a new agreement. However, the tutors did say that they would make sure nothing got brushed under the carpet.

Not having seen teh previous contract I cannot say that their previous agreement was as self employed. However, although an employer attempts to classify things that way, the way they performed their duties on the past and the earlier agreement may have created an implied contract of employment, one that have them protection in the role.

I agree with that possibility but it might well prove to be a long battle involving employment law specialists to resolve the current impasse.

And one might wonder if both sides could ever work together again anyway.....

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:26 am

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

No they have not been sacked. They have withdrawn their services temporarily from the college, until the dispute is settled. At the moment, an external company is gathering information and interviewing people. These things take time and we hope there is a resolution very soon.
Yes indeed getting together facts along with opinions/statements takes time. The tutors have withdrawn their services and that's intended as a temporary situation; until it's not. One side of the dispute intends their withdrawal as a temporary measure but what happens if the other side chooses not to return to the former arrangement, one might wonder? That's when their employment contracts determine what either side can - or can't - do at that point. That's no doubt why specialist representation could be needed, something one side can pay for using Union funds whereas the other has to pay privately or hope for pro bono.
I don’t think there is an employment contract. They are self employed and get contracted to run specific courses. Not sure there is one in place at the moment as didn’t they refuse to sign the new one? The gag is for the duration of the enquiry into the complaint. When that is settled….or not…whichever is the case, the enquiry is over and so is the current gag, I presume…..unless both sides agree to an indefinite one as part of a new agreement. However, the tutors did say that they would make sure nothing got brushed under the carpet.

From my sources there was a general tutor agreement, but not an employment contract before. They are offered dates to run courses but the whole content, title, flyers and promotion is from the course tutor. The college posts the courses on the website and social media now - but they don't do all the promo work for them. So the tutors do almost all the work for their courses and the college hosts them.

There are certain employment laws regarding contractors. Certain rights as employees are given to them - especially if they have worked at a place for so long and had to follow proscribed training and assessments to do so. The college may well be liable to pay them for years of holidays and sickness days as if they were directly employed.

As I understand it from a tutor not involved, the new contract allows for being dismissed at any time on the whim of the committee and without a reason being given. Also, that all your work and even the name you give the course, becomes the property of the college. I am sure there is much more to the complaints but this I understand so far.

In short - we let you do all the work, the college will own all your work and may get rid of you 'at will' plus you have no rights to your intellectual property if you choose to teach it elsewhere.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:58 am

Quote from mac

The way I understand how NDAs work is that the agreements are permanently binding and breaking confidentiality might lead to an individual facing legal action[/quote]

Reply from Janhar
I don’t know the terms of it but the tutors seem to hope it is not going to be a permanent gag. This is a copy paste from their announcement

“We greatly appreciate your patience and understanding, and once we are allowed to speak freely and publicly on this matter, we will then be in a position to elaborate further on the causes of our complaint.”

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:06 am

Quote from comment from notabigjump

In short - we let you do all the work, the college will own all your work and may get rid of you 'at will' plus you have no rights to your intellectual property if you choose to teach it elsewhere

Reply from Janhar

That is very revealing, and thanks for this info. That alone is sufficient to justify complaint and as you say, this is not everything.

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 9:12 am

Janhar wrote:Quote from mac

The way I understand how NDAs work is that the agreements are permanently binding and breaking confidentiality might lead to an individual facing legal action

Reply from Janhar
I don’t know the terms of it but the tutors seem to hope it is not going to be a permanent gag. This is a copy paste from their announcement

“We greatly appreciate your patience and understanding, and once we are allowed to speak freely and publicly on this matter, we will then be in a position to elaborate further on the causes of our complaint.”[/quote]

Since new 'whistleblowing law' have come into force, gagging orders are frowned upon by the courts. It will look bad upon the SNU for using them to keep disputes private.

However, the SNU in releasing a public statement detailing their version of the dispute, appears to have broken the gagging order themselves. I don't think they'd (SNU) have a leg to stand and hopefully they tutors can speak openly soon.

by OnlyVisitingEarth Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:29 am

Thank you MoMer for your words. I think along the same lines and it's obvious now there are many out there who think the same way as us. It's ok for them not to speak out as long as they do something, go to the AGM and vote for what they hold dear, what they believe in!! Whether everyone will be allowed to enter either physically or online will be interesting to see. From what we have seen, heard and experienced during the last few weeks from those in charge regarding the treatment of the tutors and threats to individual and the blatant disregard for the laws and rules of the Union. As they are all still paid up members of the Union the tutors are allowed to join the AGM, or will we see them blocked from attending.
I'm still trying to get my head around how one person and her followers could reek such havoc in such a short time, or maybe it has been planned for a long time and a perfect storm was allowed to build between this little group who seem hellbent on destroying everything in their path to fulfil their grandiose need for power and control.
I am guilty of apathy and looking the other way and in someways I think we all should take some of the blame. Many Spiritualists have a certain type of mindset, all that Love and Light and everything is wonderful in the garden mindset, so while we were cloud and navel gazing the wolves snuck in and are busy gobbling up what many spent years growing and nurturing.
I did read that there is a rumour that that little group want to turning the college into a religious place of learning, which has some merit I suppose, but what type of religious spiritualism will they be teaching, because from what I have seen, heard and witnessed their conduct so far it's has nothing to do with the Spiritualism that I learnt about from many of the now banned tutors. Do they intend to move the SNU's brand of Spiritualism to a more secular type. Where those few will be up there on the platform raising hands to sky proclaiming their Divine right to rule over all they have grabbed because the likes of Gordon Higginson etc have made it know to them and them alone that their way is the divine way.
I feel we are now wobbling on the edge of a precipice regarding the Union and Spiritualism. Where do we go from here. I for one will always stand up for the Tutors, I have known many for many years, I may not know why the tutors did what they did, but I look at what has been done and is still being done to them and others by those few, I know who I trust and will give my loyalty to them.
If the (illegal) President of the Union manages to get those votes through at the AGM I for one will walk away. As I said before this type of spiritualism coming from her and her little stunted gang of ne'er-do-wells is not my Spiritualism.
These are my thoughts on the matter.

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:39 am

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:
If the (illegal) President of the Union manages to get those votes through at the AGM I for one will walk away. As I said before this type of spiritualism coming from her and her little stunted gang of ne'er-do-wells is not my Spiritualism.
These are my thoughts on the matter.

I am sure you will not be alone and I have heard from many who intend to walk away from membership unless there is rapid progress towards an enlightened Spiritualism - which has been lost to personal ambition, cruelty towards some of the most faithful and politics.

I hope it is wrong that the college should be turned into some form of religious teachings. This is not what Arthur Findlay intended when he bequeathed his home 58 years ago this very day.

The churches, which the president considers her priority are ideal for religious teachings. We don't need a massive mansion house with all its upkeep, for a small number of members to learn what should be available to them locally. Leave it as the global beacon of teaching for psychic sciences as intended and treat the staff and teachers with greater respect.

by Admin Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:50 am

Ah the start a new belief Spiritology with Capitaine Wright establishing the new style of standard dress for the leader, we saw a lot of it in the election. To be honest that post to me about her wish to copy Scientology looks more and more real to me.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:52 am

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:
I did read that there is a rumour that that little group want to turning the college into a religious place of learning, which has some merit I suppose, but what type of religious spiritualism will they be teaching, because from what I have seen, heard and witnessed their conduct so far it's has nothing to do with the Spiritualism that I learnt about from many of the now banned tutors. Do they intend to move the SNU's brand of Spiritualism to a more secular type. Where those few will be up there on the platform raising hands to sky proclaiming their Divine right to rule over all they have grabbed because the likes of Gordon Higginson etc have made it know to them and them alone that their way is the divine way.

I think you are bang on the mark there.

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:53 am

Admin wrote:Ah the start a new belief Spiritology with Capitaine Wright establishing the new style of standard dress for the leader, we saw a lot of it in the election. To be honest that post to me about her wish to copy Scientology looks more and more real to me.

There's truth in what is first seen as ironic humour.

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:00 am

Talking of standard dress - it does not appear to be respected by the new specialist tutor Scott Milligan. Jeans t -shirts and trainers are his attire, as shown on in a recent facebook group course photograph. He is the scruffiest person in the room.

I might be nit picking but according to a non - disputing tutor, the contract they had to sign states:

'It is important for tutors to project a professional image to students, and co- workers.
Appropriate attire and grooming are one of the means of projecting a professional image.
Tutors are expected to maintain conservative, appropriate, safe, and professional attire and
grooming when on duty. As professionals, tutors are expected to be aware of the standard to
be maintained. '

Ok it's not a major issue such as 20 good tutors being in exile at present, but its does show the hypocrisy and inconsistency of this (dis) organisation.

by unseenfriends Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:01 am

I wanted to come on this thread and add my voice. I have been reading it since the start and it is now the ONLY place where this issue can be discussed. Other groups and users on Facebook have stopped all discussion, and where posts and discussions were made on Facebook or YouTube in the past, they have since been deleted. I know for definite that legal threats have been made to silence some people and there is now a lot of fear around discussing it.

As has been said, where anyone posts anything on SNU threads that is not supportive of the SNU position, then there posts are either hidden or the person is blocked (silenced). I know of many highly regarded long-time Spiritualists whose rational voices have been silenced in this way.

The question has been asked why so few people are posting on this thread? Many SNU members have awards, are healers, are involved at church and district level and have much to lose if they were removed from the SNU. Hence they don’t want to be seen to be troublemakers and potentially lose what they may have spent years or decades working for. I’m quite sure a list of “troublemakers” is being compiled and any input from those on the list will be blocked at the SNU AGM under the draconian new powers granted to the Chairman under recent bye law changes.

There are also many SNU members who have little interest in the politics of the SNU and only pay their annual fees to retain their awards, qualifications or healer status. Over the last 3 decades, the SNU has always had cliques, cronyism, and many examples of poor decision-making and unfair treatment at all levels. As a consequence, many members have little to no interest in what is happening politically. When it came to the Presidential election, I know a lot of people who did not want to vote for either candidate for the above reasons and I think that helps explain the poor turnout.

Jackie Wright campaigned on the fact that she has grown the number of SNU individual members since she came into office. That seems set to change. In the last year or so, the SNU has removed the quarterly magazine and are trying to remove the annual diary which has had many people question what do they actually personally get for their membership fee? Also I have seen many members post that they are so upset by the AFC Tutor issue that they are not going to renew their membership and are willing to lose their awards and qualifications. So SNU membership seems likely to decrease in the short term.

My concern is that if all those who oppose what is happening do leave the SNU, then it gives the current President and NEC more power to do as they please. I would say that we need all those people to stay and to fight for what is right from within.

For example with the upcoming AGM, we need all those opposed to what is happening to block the proposed Motion 1/1a that would see the Presidents term of office increased to 4/3 years, to block Motion 6 that would impose a 6-month time limit for complaints and to vote for Motion 3 unamended to allow a complaint to be made against and remove a member of the NEC.

I would request that all members sit tight for a while until the full reasons for the tutors dispute come to light and the outcomes of the various complaints to regulators are determined. I understand that the UK fundraising regulator is investigating the SNU and that complaints have been submitted to the Charities Commission. Also the electronic voting in the recent election is questionable under the Articles of Assiciation so the election may even need to be re-run.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:04 am

Admin wrote:Ah the start a new belief Spiritology with Capitaine Wright establishing the new style of standard dress for the leader, we saw a lot of it in the election. To be honest that post to me about her wish to copy Scientology looks more and more real to me.

I never saw that, about scientology

naughty to laugh but I just got a vision of them all in black Cadillacs with dark glasses on.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:15 am

notabigjump wrote:Talking of standard dress - it does not appear to be respected by the new specialist tutor Scott Milligan. Jeans t -shirts and trainers are his attire, as shown on in a recent facebook group course photograph. He is the scruffiest person in the room.

I might be nit picking but according to a non - disputing tutor, the contract they had to sign states:

'It is important for tutors to project a professional image to students, and co- workers.
Appropriate attire and grooming are one of the means of projecting a professional image.
Tutors are expected to maintain conservative, appropriate, safe, and professional attire and
grooming when on duty. As professionals, tutors are expected to be aware of the standard to
be maintained. '

Ok it's not a major issue such as 20 good tutors being in exile at present, but its does show the hypocrisy and inconsistency of this (dis) organisation.

I would probably wear joggers and slippers just to defy, maybe a few hair rollers

but as Scott (in specialist tutor role) might not be under contract (yet) what can they do?

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:22 am

Janhar wrote:
notabigjump wrote:Talking of standard dress - it does not appear to be respected by the new specialist tutor Scott Milligan. Jeans t -shirts and trainers are his attire, as shown on in a recent facebook group course photograph. He is the scruffiest person in the room.

I might be nit picking but according to a non - disputing tutor, the contract they had to sign states:

'It is important for tutors to project a professional image to students, and co- workers.
Appropriate attire and grooming are one of the means of projecting a professional image.
Tutors are expected to maintain conservative, appropriate, safe, and professional attire and
grooming when on duty. As professionals, tutors are expected to be aware of the standard to
be maintained. '

Ok it's not a major issue such as 20 good tutors being in exile at present, but its does show the hypocrisy and inconsistency of this (dis) organisation.
I would probably wear joggers and slippers just to defy, maybe a few hair rollers but as Scott (in specialist tutor role) might not be under contract (yet) what can they do?

Tell him. If he wants the same status as other tutors, he should present as such.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:24 am

unseenfriends wrote:
I would request that all members sit tight for a while until the full reasons for the tutors dispute come to light and the outcomes of the various complaints to regulators are determined. I understand that the UK fundraising regulator is investigating the SNU and that complaints have been submitted to the Charities Commission. Also the electronic voting in the recent election is questionable under the Articles of Assiciation so the election may even need to be re-run.

Good advice. Thanks for the info. I enjoyed the full post.

by mac Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:32 am

Janhar wrote:Quote from mac

The way I understand how NDAs work is that the agreements are permanently binding and breaking confidentiality might lead to an individual facing legal action

Reply from Janhar
I don’t know the terms of it but the tutors seem to hope it is not going to be a permanent gag. This is a copy paste from their announcement

“We greatly appreciate your patience and understanding, and once we are allowed to speak freely and publicly on this matter, we will then be in a position to elaborate further on the causes of our complaint.”[/quote]

".....once we are allowed to speak freely...." Allowed by whom or what, one still wonders.

by mac Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:36 am

notabigjump wrote:

Since new 'whistleblowing law' have come into force, gagging orders are frowned upon by the courts. It will look bad upon the SNU for using them to keep disputes private.

However, the SNU in releasing a public statement detailing their version of the dispute, appears to have broken the gagging order themselves. I don't think they'd (SNU) have a leg to stand and hopefully they tutors can speak openly soon.

It won't matter how much courts may frown on NDAs unless the matter comes before the court and even then an NDA is not unlawful - as I understand the situation.

It looks like the only winners in this game will be lawyers and the SNU/AFC. Crying or Very sad

by mac Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:42 am

notabigjump wrote:

However, the SNU in releasing a public statement detailing their version of the dispute, appears to have broken the gagging order themselves. I don't think they'd (SNU) have a leg to stand and hopefully they tutors can speak openly soon.

We ( I ) really don't know if an NDA is binding on both parties or just one of 'em. If it applies to both parties and one breaks the order then surely all bets are off? Or is that too simplistic?

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:45 am

notabigjump wrote:

Tell him. If he wants the same status as other tutors, he should present as such.

I don't know him. Met him once at AFC. I would not tell him to change his attire though. One of my favourite tutors who worked briefly at AFC (and I hope will return) is smart and stylish but very often is by no means conservative in dress, and the idea of her, or anyone else, getting sidelined for it would horrify me. She is the largest font of knowledge, in some subjects, that I have ever encountered in the College and additionally she is a good medium and teacher. Many of the college tutors from young to middle age have held me spellbound in their talks wearing extremely casual clothes. There is a favourite tutor of mine there right this minute and he is sometimes far from conservatively dressed, though pretty smart and dapper. So, in my opinion that dress code is pretty ridiculous.

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:50 am

Janhar wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

Tell him. If he wants the same status as other tutors, he should present as such.
I don't know him. Met him once at AFC. I would not tell him to change his attire though. One of my favourite tutors who worked briefly at AFC (and I hope will return) is smart and stylish but very often is by no means conservative in dress, and the idea of her, or anyone else, getting sidelined for it would horrify me. She is the largest font of knowledge, in some subjects, that I have ever encountered in the College and additionally she is a good medium and teacher. Many of the college tutors from young to middle age have held me spellbound in their talks wearing extremely casual clothes. There is a favourite tutor of mine there right this minute and he is far from conservatively dressed, though pretty smart and dapper. So, in my opinion that dress code is pretty ridiculous.

I agree and it doesn't personally bother me either. I am making the point that this controversial contract includes this, yet it is clearly not enforced. That's the bigger picture here.

by Janhar Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:59 am

notabigjump wrote:
Janhar wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

Tell him. If he wants the same status as other tutors, he should present as such.
I don't know him. Met him once at AFC. I would not tell him to change his attire though. One of my favourite tutors who worked briefly at AFC (and I hope will return) is smart and stylish but very often is by no means conservative in dress, and the idea of her, or anyone else, getting sidelined for it would horrify me. She is the largest font of knowledge, in some subjects, that I have ever encountered in the College and additionally she is a good medium and teacher. Many of the college tutors from young to middle age have held me spellbound in their talks wearing extremely casual clothes. There is a favourite tutor of mine there right this minute and he is far from conservatively dressed, though pretty smart and dapper. So, in my opinion that dress code is pretty ridiculous.

I agree and it doesn't personally bother me either. I am making the point that this controversial contract includes this, yet it is clearly not enforced. That's the bigger picture here.

Yes, I see what you mean now. It is pretty absurd

Rules for the sake of having rules.

by notabigjump Tue Sep 17, 2024 12:05 pm

unseenfriends wrote:
There are also many SNU members who have little interest in the politics of the SNU and only pay their annual fees to retain their awards, qualifications or healer status. Over the last 3 decades, the SNU has always had cliques, cronyism, and many examples of poor decision-making and unfair treatment at all levels. As a consequence, many members have little to no interest in what is happening politically.
.

I am unfortunately hearing that many church committees are not interested in the tutor dispute, nor concerned about the proposed 4 year term.

Also, as we see more 'end of course photos' without the 20 tutors being posted, they appear too sugar coated in praise and send a message that all is fine at the AFC. I am sure this is deliberate.

The dispute has been drawn out unfairly for the tutors, but interest is waning as so many don't understand it (no fault of the tutors who honour the NDA).

Many of us are doing what we can to express our concerns here, but we are starting to rehash old information, until the next update.

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