Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by Admin Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:34 am

Nothing more to add to this piece that Lis has said.

Mr Jacobs should understand that, as these tutors have studied and achieved awards so that they can earn a living from doing this work, then an attempt from a former employer, even on a contract basis, is an action aimed at preventing them from earning a living in their chosen profession. This is a well known offence, Restraint of Trade, Now should Mr Jacobs be perceived as doing this on behalf of the SNU or the NEC, then he and the SNU or NEC would be liable to face an action over this. He may be well advised to live within his tutors contract and avoid such commentary, however, depending who he has contacted and what they do with his messages, that may be to late.

It is made worse by what may appear to be threats towards those people and their current SNU membership and awards. Now if those threats are clear or can be easily implied, and I have no idea if this is the case, then surely he cannot be acting on a personal basis, surely there is implied permission to do so, from at least the President. Maybe the NEC and President should step in to stop such actions taken by any individual connected to them.

by Admin Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:36 am

Oh I heard an interesting name for the 20 tutors the AFC20

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:42 am

There's a certain individual who ignored all the norms of good behaviour and business practice for 5 decades and then exhibited exactly similarly behaviours in his role as president of a vast nation.
I wonder who within the structure of the SNU/AFC business would have the cahones to call out and face down an individual who appears to use a very similar approach in her own role?

Similarly who would have the resolve/courage to confront any of the other individuals behaving in reprehensible ways? Perhaps only someone who is prepared to risk being ostracised by those very individuals running the organisation (s)he loves so much - and finding her/himself in a position very similar to that of the AFC 20. Those tutors had courage all those weeks ago to make a stand but each at least had the company of the others.

It would take a very strong, very determined, very courageous individual.

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:03 am

Admin wrote:

Mr Jacobs should understand that, as these tutors have studied and achieved awards so that they can earn a living from doing this work, then an attempt from a former employer, even on a contract basis, is an action aimed at preventing them from earning a living in their chosen profession.

Would I be right in thinking that the only way to counter such behaviour would be to take legal action against the individual and/or the body represented?

If so the crippling costs of going to law would effectively mean the individual named above probably has little to fear......

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:05 am

Admin wrote:Oh I heard an interesting name for the 20 tutors the AFC20

"The Findlay 20" would be nice....

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:25 am

notabigjump wrote:

The first issue today is that yet again, I am reminded that the president is not the union, nor is she the owner of the AFC. Yet another member reminded me today of how openly she stated she will never let the tutors back to the college!

I wrote very early on in this conversation that I saw very little likelihood the 20 tutors would WISH to return anyway, at least not while the present bods are in charge. That's even more the situation now I'd think.

I wonder how anyone can decide that alone, or even on behalf of an entire charitable union, and still get away with it. Does she really believe it is all up to her? Does nobody question the level of power she weirdly believes she has? Why does nobody stand up to her and say “hey, it’s not all about what YOU want.”

Because "Possession is nine tenths the law". The president and her supporters CAN do what they wish because they KNOW they can do what they wish and they know that others will be - have been! -intimidated by their actions and attitudes.

She doesn’t own the union and she doesn’t own the college. She is elected to represent the SNU as the president and to uphold decisions that are democratically decided by committees.

largely academic points - Possession is nine tenths the law. I'm (she's) in charge - now let's see you try to change that.

The other issue today which bugs me are new reports of people being intimidated by Paul Jacobs online.
As tutors start bringing out their own residential courses, it seems PJ is at it again bullying people for supporting the very thing that JW, PJ and Co. created.

He's done similar before from what I've learned and got away with it. He'd be daft holding back from doing it again when it suits his ends - he'll get away with it again.

Time to read the room madam president!

I'm pretty sure she has.... Wink

by Admin Fri Oct 04, 2024 1:22 am

Mac I think you may well be right but if they keep this sort of bombardment up something is bound to go wrong. We know the legal case is up soon so who knows?

by mac Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:55 am

Admin wrote:Mac I think you may well be right but if they keep this sort of bombardment up something is bound to go wrong. We know the legal case is up soon so who knows?

It's on a different scale but similar is seen with the presidential candidate who blusters his way through life and browbeats into submission anyone who opposes him. I'll be surprised if the legal action comes to anything much.

by notabigjump Fri Oct 04, 2024 2:37 pm

Just when it couldn’t get any tougher, an NEC source leaked that the recently re-elected Vice President (Minister Julia Almond) has just resigned from the NEC.

From being bullied by the President’s son at the AGM, to the NEC ratifying in advance of their meeting she would be replaced as the Chair of the Ministers Committee; the knives were out for her.

She is a fair, kind, hardworking and intelligent minister, who deserved the respect of her peers. But they just couldn’t help themselves and constructively and intentionally made her life so hard, that they put another good person out of a job they were excellent at.

Replaced in the Minister’s Chair role by Sandie Hagger, who then brings in her best friends Simon James and Brian Robertson, nepotism is becoming synonymous with the SNU and the NEC.

I am totally disgusted! Perhaps now, others who couldn’t see what’s going on will understand what heroes the AFC20 are, in sacrificing so much to stand up to the vindictive ways of JW and her dastardly band of NEC’s!

by mac Fri Oct 04, 2024 3:01 pm

Well like 'em or loathe 'em members of the SNU are stuck with the bods in power.

I do agree, though, that dedicated, trustworthy, principled workers for the Union feeling forced to leave is a disgrace and it appears the bods in charge can do just whatever they choose and make others' positions untenable. Doubtless the Vice President DOES HAVE the respect of her peers but the behaviour of the bods in charge demonstrates pretty clearly they are not her peers.

It does make one wonder where all this will end. Sad

by unseenfriends Fri Oct 04, 2024 3:22 pm

notabigjump wrote:Just when it couldn’t get any tougher, an NEC source leaked that the recently re-elected Vice President (Minister Julia Almond) has just resigned from the NEC.

From being bullied by the President’s son at the AGM, to the NEC ratifying in advance of their meeting she would be replaced as the Chair of the Ministers Committee; the knives were out for her.

She is a fair, kind, hardworking and intelligent minister, who deserved the respect of her peers. But they just couldn’t help themselves and constructively and intentionally made her life so hard, that they put another good person out of a job they were excellent at.

Notabigjump, this is shocking news as she was the voice of reason on the NEC but clearly not JW’s choice. I am appalled that the President's son was attacking people at the the AGM and his behaviour is clearly enabled and supported by the President. I just wish more people would stand up and speak the truth about what is going on.

by Janhar Fri Oct 04, 2024 3:29 pm

notabigjump wrote:Just when it couldn’t get any tougher, an NEC source leaked that the recently re-elected Vice President (Minister Julia Almond) has just resigned from the NEC.

O.M.G.

From being bullied by the President’s son at the AGM, to the NEC ratifying in advance of their meeting she would be replaced as the Chair of the Ministers Committee; the knives were out for her.

She is a fair, kind, hardworking and intelligent minister, who deserved the respect of her peers. But they just couldn’t help themselves and constructively and intentionally made her life so hard, that they put another good person out of a job they were excellent at.

Replaced in the Minister’s Chair role by Sandie Hagger, who then brings in her best friends Simon James and Brian Robertson, nepotism is becoming synonymous with the SNU and the NEC.

I am totally disgusted! Perhaps now, others who couldn’t see what’s going on will understand what heroes the AFC20 are, in sacrificing so much to stand up to the vindictive ways of JW and her dastardly band of NEC’s!

I am finding it all a bit scary now.

by MoMer Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:11 pm

notabigjump wrote:Just when it couldn’t get any tougher, an NEC source leaked that the recently re-elected Vice President (Minister Julia Almond) has just resigned from the NEC.

I doubt anyone could or would blame Minister Almond. She’s been in a horrible position for over two years but, I’m guessing (and I can only guess until we know more) that JW has gone for her with the big guns now. I just worry about where it will leave things, when the only voice against the tyranny has been pushed out. Not one member of the NEC of two years ago remains, apart from JW. That alone speaks volumes.

From being bullied by the President’s son at the AGM, to the NEC ratifying in advance of their meeting she would be replaced as the Chair of the Ministers Committee; the knives were out for her.

What I witnessed at the AGM from JW’s son was nothing short of the pettiness that I have witnessed from his mother, so that is no surprise, in my opinion she’s loaded his gun and he’s fired it, in several directions, as he didn’t just go for Minister Almond.

She is a fair, kind, hardworking and intelligent minister, who deserved the respect of her peers. But they just couldn’t help themselves and constructively and intentionally made her life so hard, that they put another good person out of a job they were excellent at.

I have admired Minister Almond’s tenacity, for managing to sit tight for over two years. I can’t and don’t claim to know how she feels about all that has and is going on but, my gut tells me that I can’t see her liking it, as she has always struck me as a firm but fair person, one who is passionate about Spiritualism and respects the rules and bye-laws and what they represent.

Replaced in the Minister’s Chair role by Sandie Hagger, who then brings in her best friends Simon James and Brian Robertson, nepotism is becoming synonymous with the SNU and the NEC.

I don’t know Sandie Hagger, I haven’t seen that she has been in any way prolific within the movement or the ministry, to any degree that would afford her the role over Julia Almond. As for the nepotism/cronyism, that really doesn’t come as any surprise whatsoever. To my mind, there are very few people and/or positions within the union now that are “safe”.

I am totally disgusted! Perhaps now, others who couldn’t see what’s going on will understand what heroes the AFC20 are, in sacrificing so much to stand up to the vindictive ways of JW and her dastardly band of NEC’s!

Words fail me, I cannot describe how I feel about all of this. None of it shocks me, I saw this happening when she got the presidency, maybe not to this degree but I knew without any doubt that she wouldn’t be good for the movement. I already know what heroes the “AFC20” are and have admired their courage and tenacity from day one, for some of them even before that, having been taught by them and knowing their love and passion for Spirit. Will others now see it? After the AGM I doubt it, I live in hope that at some point, we’ll suddenly hear a load of pennies start to drop but, I wouldn’t be foolish enough to hold my breath.

by mac Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:12 pm

It's all very well saying folk should stand up and speak the truth but who would they be telling and why would others be any more able to do something about it?

I do understand why there are such emotions about the situation but what's been happening for some months now does show the lack of accountability in the SNU's management structure. The bods in charge can do what they choose and have done just that - there appears to be nothing ordinary members can do about it.

Way back I suggested what's needed is root and branch re-structuring - but how?

by Jbodoski Fri Oct 04, 2024 4:41 pm

mac wrote:It's all very well saying folk should stand up and speak the truth but who would they be telling and why would others be any more able to do something about it?

I do understand why there are such emotions about the situation but what's been happening for some months now does show the lack of accountability in the SNU's management structure. The bods in charge can do what they choose and have done just that - there appears to be nothing ordinary members can do about it.

Way back I suggested what's needed is root and branch re-structuring - but how?

I agree mac. I have been there and been treated just the same by the previous Administration. Basically what the 3 officers decide goes. However, if one of the officers disagrees with the decision waiting to be made they simply canvas their backers on the nec to help push it through. I have seen many things that should have been investigated, but for standing up my reward was removal.

by Admin Sat Oct 05, 2024 5:49 am

Thanks notabigjump, I wonder how often it is that there are two Vice Presidents who are not elected.

At the 2023 AGM there was the following announcement in regard to the VP Finance "Vice President
The one validly nominated member resigned, there were no other qualified persons." The VP was appointed earlier this year as the constitution allows the appointment of a VP by the President and NEC if a vacancy occur. Clearly the President now has the opportunity to fill the vacancy that has now occurred and it will be 2 years before that choice will face an election.

Can I check this out with people who know, Has the President now got total control of all the committees and key positions (she will of course make the employment call on the new SNU General Manager, the Coroprate Affairs Manager and the next AFC manager).

Now who will make the call on the independents who now have to be appointed to the complaints committee that was voted in at the AGM, let me guess.

What an astonishing level of control for one person to have.

I am sure this is the start of an ongoing clean up. I have also alluded to the NEC's ability to amend and introduce new Bye Laws as long as they do not run counter to the articles of association. Well we know these were done in 2023 and early 2024 with members only finding out just before the AGM. There is, in reality quite and amazing amount of change she can introduce that would not run counter to the articles and without having to notify members until the changes came into effect.

Its quite something to create the resignation of a Vice President just after her successful election would have been minuted at the AGM.

by Admin Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:04 am

In the same spirit about seeking clarification of awards and membership.

Is the TSNU an actual award or just an acknowledgement that the individual has achieved the required standard to work as a tutor at the AFC?

I think I understand that the CSNU and DSNU ( of all types are awards ) these can be removed and automatically cease if a person stops being a member of the SNU (for whatever reason forced or voluntary departure.

I am aware these have no academic standing externally.

I get a bit more confused with the awards MSNU and OSNU I know that these can, for example, conduct marriages in the UK ( but not conduct and register marriages in, for example Australia, (indeed I know one person studying for the OSNU here who is also taking the exams to register as an Australian Marriage Celebrant). I can imagine a few holders may get a steady income from working as a marriage celebrant.

I know these are fairly significant exams but I guess they have no academic standing externally. I would presumme these can be taken from people and I presume that they are lost if a person ceases to be an SNU member.

Feedback please; Given the combined efforts of the AFC 20 to obtain all the awards they have, their loss is a significant penalty they all must feel like they are now facing. However, I am certain the rest of the non SNU world will ignore this and treat them as they did before,

by Admin Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:19 am

Hmm my wild card thinking on the 9th Septemeber

Admin wrote:I forgot two things in my summary. Both are very wild cards, or looked it on Day 1.

The message about Jackie Wright wanting to turn it into Scientology and introduce Tithing.

Madness, I wonder, so many things have happened which were not envisaged when people elected Minister Wright President. Its noticeable members are only finding out what she intends after the event.

Should she get a 4 year term there is plenty of time to change bye laws and with the powers granted her under standing orders at meetings she can take virtually full control of the SNU.

Then Make it necessary for all church committees to be full SNU members a tick to full control

Introduce tithing for full members remember at the best is 10% of your income, tax allowable, Another Tick to Full Control. All other members lose the vote in a new category. (also tweak church votes)

Membership dropped to 200 income rises from $52,000 to $900,000 Great income another tick.

Close the churches that fail the committee rules tick.

Sell 200 churches Big Tick; trust funds rise by 12,000,000 Impressive tick

You now have an elitist very wealthy operation Tick

Imagination is a great thing am I dreaming.

Well Total Control came more quickly than I imagined, but, in effect, that is what the President has now. It will just remain to be seen how it is used.

Simon James and Brian Robertson have been drawn much closer to the fold now and their Vancouver Centre requires full members to tithe. So the NEC has an example to look at.

I reckon that the Bye Laws could be interpreted as having the power to play with memberships, as well as other issues.

That weird dream remains a weird dream; but parts of it seem to have fully materialised now, with the members in the dark about what happens next.

Ah dreams turn into nightmares; the AFC as Spiritology House and Presidents in Captains uniforms.

by Jbodoski Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:55 am

Admin wrote:In the same spirit about seeking clarification of awards and membership.

Is the TSNU an actual award or just an acknowledgement that the individual has achieved the required standard to work as a tutor at the AFC?

I think I understand that the CSNU and DSNU ( of all types are awards ) these can be removed and automatically cease if a person stops being a member of the SNU (for whatever reason forced or voluntary departure.

I am aware these have no academic standing externally.

I get a bit more confused with the awards MSNU and OSNU I know that these can, for example, conduct marriages in the UK ( but not conduct and register marriages in, for example Australia, (indeed I know one person studying for the OSNU here who is also taking the exams to register as an Australian Marriage Celebrant). I can imagine a few holders may get a steady income from working as a marriage celebrant.

I know these are fairly significant exams but I guess they have no academic standing externally. I would presumme these can be taken from people and I presume that they are lost if a person ceases to be an SNU member.

Feedback please; Given the combined efforts of the AFC 20 to obtain all the awards they have, their loss is a significant penalty they all must feel like they are now facing. However, I am certain the rest of the non SNU world will ignore this and treat them as they did before,

There are not many TSNU holders left, many have passed away. It was an appointment after passing a rigorous training programme. Those that teach there now are DSNU(T), which takes a lot of training as you have to pass the CSNU(t) first.

You are correct, none of the SNUs qualifications have any academic standing, that includes the ministerial grades OSNU & Minister. All can be removed for various reasons, (usually disciplinary, e.g. criminal offences, or byelaws offences) or on leaving the SNU.

Ministers and OSNUs can marry people in the UK but a registrar must be present at the ceremony. Anyone can do a funeral in the UK. To be a minister and use that title you must be a member of a religious organisation.
Religions are not recognised by law, they are defined by law as decreed firstly by Lord Denning in 1970, and later changed by Lord Toulson 2013.

Some of the tutors are already setting up courses, and are recognised worldwide and will be working as much as ever. For most of them the AFC forms only a small part of their work.

by Admin Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:10 am

I did forget a couple of things.

Since becoming President there has been a new, well funded, approach To PR. This maintains a tightly scripted presentation of the President, SNU and AFC. It must have helped immensely during the election and it also prevented, we have recorded in this thread, messages which suggest differing view remaining upon those social media pages. This approach has just seen the web developer of the SNU site being dismissed so a new and better site can be developed.

Also, since becoming President, an HR Department has been established working especially on complaints and contracts.

I also predicted a move of the HQ from Redwoods to the AFC which, apparently, received some outing in the AGM, with Redwood maybe becoming student lodging.

by Janhar Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:44 am

The college seems to be, at present, only workable because of Simon, Brian and Paul. Other tutors’ drawing power simply does not match theirs even though they are very good and have their own loyal students. Paul’s popularity is offset by a great deal of unpopularity due to his tongue so not reliable as he can lose fans easily, leaving the other two mainly holding it together in regard to bringing people in. Unless they are thinking of relocating to UK, which I doubt, I see things as very precarious at the college.

by Admin Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:53 am

Thanks Jbodoski for that excellent summary of the situation regarding awards

by notabigjump Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:02 am

Janhar wrote:The college seems to be, at present, only workable because of Simon, Brian and Paul. Other tutors’ drawing power simply does not match theirs even though they are very good and have their own loyal students. Paul’s popularity is offset by a great deal of unpopularity due to his tongue so not reliable as he can lose fans easily, leaving the other two mainly holding it together in regard to bringing people in. Unless they are thinking of relocating to UK, which I doubt, I see things as very precarious at the college.

At present, they have taken over a lot of weeks that the AFC20 had many students already booked on. Some students cancelled when the tutors went on strike and others (either because their travel was already booked or for other reasons) attended.

The real test will be in new bookings for new courses, with the new tutors; who haven't had as much time to build up a following.

I agree it is very precarious.

by Janhar Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:59 am

Jbodoski wrote:

Some of the tutors are already setting up courses, and are recognised worldwide and will be working as much as ever. For most of them the AFC forms only a small part of their work.

That is very true. They worked at the AFC because they love the AFC but they don’t need it. We might get some of them back with a change of President but if it was me I would be kissing the SNU farewell.

by notabigjump Sat Oct 05, 2024 10:31 am

Janhar wrote:
Jbodoski wrote:

That is very true. They worked at the AFC because they love the AFC but they don’t need it. We might get some of them back with a change of President but if it was me I would be kissing the SNU farewell.

They don't need it at all. The work of the spirit can be anywhere and that anywhere usually has better facilities if residential. However, there are many special memories there too and the fight for justice and reinstatement of courses could be a natural draw. I'd love to see them back and with a renewed vision of spiritualist development, to the current one. We've seen what the old guard had led to and there will be a great opportunity once they win their case. Yes I do believe they will.

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