Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Fair play Bravo and good luck but as someone who does both PM and mental yourself can you see where I'm coming from?
I'm genuinely puzzled not having a pop at you, honestly.
As evidence comes via mental mediumship pretty easily then why do folk labour so long and hard to get PM either instead of or as well as?

Katy of course i see where your coming from....
physical mediumship works in many ways.... take transfiguration and i mean the real deal... not face pulling... ,, i ask you this question.... if spirit were able to tranfigure and also speak through the medium in trance at the same time.... with both the face of the spirit person and the trans communication matching perfectly.... and the face holding for the whole time of the communication.... wouldnt that be wonderfull evidence? wouldnt that be worth the sitting and devlopment?

well here is a copy and paste from one of our circle reports... note i have removed personal evidence... but you will hopefully get the point...


Albert asked me to move closer to him and held my hands, when I did so I saw my nans image so clearly it took my breath away, not only was the image clear it was also sustained throughout trans communication when my nan told me among other personal things that she always did (removed), this was something that I had totally forgotten and was clear evidence for me that it was her speaking.
Following this Albert asked for the curtains to be closed to rebuild the energy before repeating the process with Joan when she also received clear evidence of the person who was talking to her.

KatyKing wrote:Fair play Bravo and good luck but as someone who does both PM and mental yourself can you see where I'm coming from?
I'm genuinely puzzled not having a pop at you, honestly.
As evidence comes via mental mediumship pretty easily then why do folk labour so long and hard to get PM either instead of or as well as?

Mayhaps the extra effort brings extra rewards, for the medium, their circle, and the recipients of the evidence they are producing. Spirit may well be leading mental mediums with potential into physical mediumship to further test and develop their abilities, like a boxer going up a weight division or a sprinter moving into longer races. At any rate the dedication and patience it takes to sit in a circle for years to develop physical mediumship is more than commendable. And to do it in the light is even better

Yep I can live with that.
Cheers Wes and Bravo.
I suspect have been attempting to make a virtue out of my laziness.

Well said all the key is the evidence

Wes wrote:

KatyKing wrote:Fair play Bravo and good luck but as someone who does both PM and mental yourself can you see where I'm coming from?
I'm genuinely puzzled not having a pop at you, honestly.
As evidence comes via mental mediumship pretty easily then why do folk labour so long and hard to get PM either instead of or as well as?

Mayhaps the extra effort brings extra rewards, for the medium, their circle, and the recipients of the evidence they are producing. Spirit may well be leading mental mediums with potential into physical mediumship to further test and develop their abilities, like a boxer going up a weight division or a sprinter moving into longer races. At any rate the dedication and patience it takes to sit in a circle for years to develop physical mediumship is more than commendable. And to do it in the light is even better

I agree wes. I think that spirit communicators use whatever method works for them, it's in their hands, not ours, although we have to set up the conditions. It would be ideal if mediums could deliver survival evidence by both mental and physical mediumship, in the light, subjective, and objective, which is possible and has been done before . My best wishes to all on that pathway. I recently noticed that Tony Stockwell is having a go, and he is well aware of the value of survival evidence I would hope. Extract:

Tony Stockwell goes physical!

An extract from a recent interview with Tony Stockwell on Spiritsinc site

Tables Flying!

We wondered then if Tony sat for physical phenomena himself and if - like many mediums - sat in circle. He told us that after a break of many years, himself and a few others decided to sit for physical phenomena.
He continues by saying, "Our circle is quite informal in that we sit in a small room containing a settee and a couple of chairs. We start in red light but the main guide will inform us whether we need to increase or decrease this, whether they want music or not sometimes even turning the lights off themselves!

"We have had some outstanding results in the last few months of sitting including transfiguration, the start of some direct voice phenomena at one point even finding that spirit had left a perfect fingerprint impression in some talcum powder during the sitting. It was as if the imprint had been sucked out of the powder and we were so amazed with this that we immediately tried to recreate the impression ourselves. It just wasn't possible and in our excitement lost the evidence of the original fingerprint!"

Still on the subject of physical phenomena Tony told us that he was having particularly good results with table phenomena. "We get very bored with little tables" he muses, "We like to use massive tables, the biggest we can find (Tony pointed to a table in the interview room which must have been ten by four feet long!) "At one of our dems we even asked two people - one of whom was a body builder - to lie on the table and it was flying around the room!"

Whatever people think about table phenomena it can't be reconstructed, it is a physical phenomenon"

normy wrote:

Wes wrote:

KatyKing wrote:Fair play Bravo and good luck but as someone who does both PM and mental yourself can you see where I'm coming from?
I'm genuinely puzzled not having a pop at you, honestly.
As evidence comes via mental mediumship pretty easily then why do folk labour so long and hard to get PM either instead of or as well as?

Mayhaps the extra effort brings extra rewards, for the medium, their circle, and the recipients of the evidence they are producing. Spirit may well be leading mental mediums with potential into physical mediumship to further test and develop their abilities, like a boxer going up a weight division or a sprinter moving into longer races. At any rate the dedication and patience it takes to sit in a circle for years to develop physical mediumship is more than commendable. And to do it in the light is even better

I agree wes. I think that spirit communicators use whatever method works for them, it's in their hands, not ours, although we have to set up the conditions. It would be ideal if mediums could deliver survival evidence by both mental and physical mediumship, in the light, subjective, and objective, which is possible and has been done before . My best wishes to all on that pathway. I recently noticed that Tony Stockwell is having a go, and he is well aware of the value of survival evidence I would hope. Extract:

Tony Stockwell goes physical!

An extract from a recent interview with Tony Stockwell on Spiritsinc site

Tables Flying!

We wondered then if Tony sat for physical phenomena himself and if - like many mediums - sat in circle. He told us that after a break of many years, himself and a few others decided to sit for physical phenomena.
He continues by saying, "Our circle is quite informal in that we sit in a small room containing a settee and a couple of chairs. We start in red light but the main guide will inform us whether we need to increase or decrease this, whether they want music or not sometimes even turning the lights off themselves!

"We have had some outstanding results in the last few months of sitting including transfiguration, the start of some direct voice phenomena at one point even finding that spirit had left a perfect fingerprint impression in some talcum powder during the sitting. It was as if the imprint had been sucked out of the powder and we were so amazed with this that we immediately tried to recreate the impression ourselves. It just wasn't possible and in our excitement lost the evidence of the original fingerprint!"

Still on the subject of physical phenomena Tony told us that he was having particularly good results with table phenomena. "We get very bored with little tables" he muses, "We like to use massive tables, the biggest we can find (Tony pointed to a table in the interview room which must have been ten by four feet long!) "At one of our dems we even asked two people - one of whom was a body builder - to lie on the table and it was flying around the room!"

Whatever people think about table phenomena it can't be reconstructed, it is a physical phenomenon"

I know quite a few people who have sat with Tony and his table work is extraordinary. I said it someone else here that he is an excellent table medium, as well as a fine clairvoyant.

Wes wrote:Normy and Bravo, why do you think that physical mediums do "go on the road" and perform only in the dark? Are they simply not ready or are they driven by an agenda other than service to spirit? Such as ego, greed, or not being genuine?

Two very reliable friends of mine would I think agree with your suggestions, in at least one case, as they proved fraud for themselves was committed by a so-called PM.

normy

Pm should always be done in the light, or in coloured lights, to avoid any accusations or the urge to turn to cheating when there is a lack of phenomena. This is unfortunately the way things go, as alot of pm done in the dark does end up being fraudulant.
E A

Yep. Light is what we are about really. It's even on SNU badge.
This skulking about in the dark is just asking for trouble and inviting abuse.
Chap I know groomed as a young medium by some PM wrong uns, sat for dark show PM. Someone switched on the light, chap was caught stood up in middle of room waving the trumpet about to look as if it was flying.
He's a top stage medium now.

Hi katyking - yes i know who you mean (not sure if allowed to name and shame so will use initials instead). CF was caught doing this. At the time he was in the presence of RF and other NAS members.
Its well known. Its just a shame that even the top mediums have to learn the lessons the hard way, and to reep what you sow - so to speak. As once caught out, they will unfortunately always be tarnished, no matter how good their mediumship is. Its a sad fact.And something to be learned by others i feel.
E A

The question is why....?

thats a good question petal.
maybe these people a driven by ego? maybe they like the money? maybe they want to be this way?
who knows except for them the reasons that drive them to cheat and produce fake phenomena?
the excuse CF came up with when he was caught was outside interference from bad entites!
Not everything can nor should be blamed on the lower astral or bad entities though - it just gives people an excuse to lie and cover up instead of revealing the truth and damaging their reputation.
E A

earth angel wrote:thats a good question petal.
maybe these people a driven by ego? maybe they like the money? maybe they want to be this way?
who knows except for them the reasons that drive them to cheat and produce fake phenomena?
the excuse CF came up with when he was caught was outside interference from bad entites!
Not everything can nor should be blamed on the lower astral or bad entities though - it just gives people an excuse to lie and cover up instead of revealing the truth and damaging their reputation. Plus
E A

...and he was holding the trumpet?
Like a kiddie holding a bag of sweets he shouldn't have had...Guilty.

nick pettitt wrote:

Azur wrote:

zerdini wrote:

Blue Lotus wrote:Leslie Flint and John Campbell Sloan sat in the dark.

They were both Direct Voice mediums!

Yes I know but can't red light be used for direct voice. Gordon Higginson use to demonstrate and run courses at the Lindum Hotel, St Annes-on-sea, and if memory serves me well. The trumpets at Gordon's seances would fly around the room at tremendous speed and heights, never once touching the great big chandeliers.

...Why would you want red light for direct voice? It's a bit like wanting the light on to listen to the radio... If anything I would find light a distraction when listening to communications in that way..

I am puzzled why direct voice is generally done in the pitch black. One example, Leslie Flint heard voices in the cinema, not pitch black. I know a developing PM who has heard DV in daylight, and materialisation is said to require the maximum energy etc but is done in some kind of light. Why is DV so special? The darkness can mask fraud, and can cause doubt as to whether it is trance talk or real DV.
I will add a personal anecdote from a seance in my NAS days, 1995, with my thoughts at the time.

"On Sunday 13th November, I attended a NAS séance at the Baker residence in Bath, with Lincoln ( Colin Fry) as the medium. There I met a Danish man named Carl, who lived in Germany. He was well-educated, and knew a lot about EVP ( electronic voice phenomena). I told him that our circle was also very interested in EVP. He asked me, when he knew I worked in science, if I knew what kind of energy was involved with this. I said that I did not know, but if they want us to know we will find out. We were all searched before entry as always. As it happened, Carl was asked to sit next to me in the front row.

Carl and I volunteered to check that the cable ties on Lincoln were secure. I pulled the ties to check tightness, noted their position, and how he was sat in the chair. I could see nothing inside the empty cabinet. Lincoln, trussed up in the chair, was placed well inside the cabinet. The curtains were drawn, the door locked, and lights turned off. The room was completely dark.
We all began to sing, and the first voice through the medium was said to be Frances, aka Judy Garland. Over the rainbow, and the One that got away, were sung very loudly, and sounded similar to Judy’s with emotion, and just like I heard before in the Westone Hotel séance.
Felix then answered some questions, and I asked him, on behalf of me and Carl, “Could you tell us anything about the nature of the energy which the Spirit World uses to communicate with us by means of EVP, tape recordings etc? Are we meant to find out eventually to help the bridge between the two worlds?”
The physical machines are only part of the natural energy, life itself is the energy, if you want something it comes to you by way of inspiration. What matters is going within to find your Higher Self, that you might develop and carry out service to others in your life. Science is not necessary to do this, it draws you away from going within.
“ But there is a science your side, surely, the natural laws under which you live?”
If you like to call it a science that is so, but it is not like Earthly science.

After a gurgling sound, a new voice called out, “Steiner, Steiner”.
Carl asked something in German, “…. Rudolph?” I think. A reply came in German which I did not understand.
A trumpet came towards us, shown by it’s luminous tabs, and there was the sound of padding footsteps with it. I would have dearly loved illumination at his point. Carl was now asked, in English, to take hold of the trumpet, but it was out of his reach, while within mine. It was about two feet in front of my chair, suspended horizontally about three feet from the floor. I felt like grabbing it in my curiosity, but it was not meant for me, and we have to go by the rules. It dropped to the floor with a bang. A conversation followed between Carl and Steiner.
Carl : EVP is at a dead end.
Steiner: You should start again at home, you gave up too easily.
Carl: I have tried everything.
Steiner: Yes, physical phenomena will be produced.
Carl: How? There is no medium, have you any clues?
Steiner: There is a man, young, wild, and uncontrolled. You will tame him. His mother is Austrian.
Carl: is it one of my students?
Steiner: There is one like that, but he is staunch Catholic. Start again, at home.
Carl: In Munich?
Steiner: No, at home.
Carl: Ah, in ( a name given, sounded like Weisenbaum).

Two communicators then came through and were recognised by sitters. A bell was rung. Two lady guides then spoke. We sang while Lincoln came round, there was a loud bang, and when the lights went on Lincoln was seated outside the cabinet still tied up. Carl and I inspected the ties, and they were still tight, and in the same place as far as I could tell."

The question is, I think Colin is the real deal and it was not fraud, and a materialised spirit padded up to me with a trumpet through which he spoke by DV. However, it could have been Colin or anyone else doing it physically in theory, as it has been shown I think that ties can be removed and replaced.
Another point is that there is no way of telling in the dark whether the voice is DV, trance, or normal, it is taken on trust. In light it might be a bit easier to detect fraud.
I quite distrust trance personally, and it can easily be confused with DV or vice versa. Can anyone tell me a way of being sure it's DV? At the moment, my best evidence is having absolute trust in a medium who has shown survival evidence by DV and by being sure it is not trance or mental mediumship.

I can see where your coming from Normy.
I feel that perhaps only ectoplasm based PM should be done in coloured light (as i understand it cannot be produced in daylight conditions due to the nature of the substance and the dangers involved), and that DV and trance should remain in the light. This way it will keep the medium transparent and not under any suspicion, plus the sitters would see for themselves and not be left wondering. I know the dark can play tricks on the mind of many, which cant be helpful to the medium or other sitters who are sitting geniunely.
E A

Cool tale normy thank you for sharing it. I think Colin was on the up and up PM wise but pressured to perform by the evil sods surrounding him. After a while.....
Well it's water under the bridge now. He was nobbut a lad and the work he's done since more thann shows what a top class medium he has turned into.
Trumpet DV in light is usually good ventriloquism. In dark in twenties and thirties maybe wireless and an accomplice. LF probably genune sometimes but certainly not always. The recordings in parts are most unconvincing. However it's brought, the benchmark for validity has to be the evidence that comes through. If that's kosher then how it comes is less important. The medium is NOT the message in this game. It's the message that matters evey time.

At that time, I had no reason to distrust George Cranley and the rest of the NAS committee, and could not see how fraud would be possible to commit fraud with the phenomena, in the context of the room which they prepared for all the seances I attended.
I didn't see how the trumpets could have been faked with reaching rods, to fly around as they did.
I was astounded by the voice purporting to be that of Judy Garland, so powerful and just like her in the physical. It seemed impossible for Colin, as a man, to mimic that, then change to other deep male voices of the guides, and some celebrities. George later told me that, at times, famous people were personally known to sitters who authenticated them by evidence given, but I didn't experience that in the few times I sat in the seances. The survival evidence by DV was only a small part of the total seance, I never received any, and I didn't check out any recipients what they thought, but the messages seemed no better than given by good mental mediums in my opinion.

Thank you for the most honest account I have heard of the nas set up.
It is nice to hear the truth.
Petal

Thanks Normy a very good account I think it is clear from his work and reputation now, even writing for PN that Colin seems a genuine guy and a good medium. I think KK should not be making off the cuff comments like

I think Colin was on the up and up PM wise but pressured to perform by the evil sods surrounding him

given it could be interpreted as referring to zerdnini aka George who was on this forum. My understanding is that he and Colin remained good friends.

Your answer however, cleared that point up with an informed view from someone who had participated in the NAS. It is very interesting information, especially your experiences with the direct voice mediumship. Personally I have always wondered why it is done in teh dark. If people try trumpet for direct voice in the USA's NSAC then it has to be in dim red light. That organisation still has a number of people with the expertise to do trance, transfiguration, trumpet and table in seances all in dim red light. Sadly with Rev Anne Gehman we saw 3 out of the 4, with the time precluding any trumpet work.

I do think that it was tangibly evil and akin to grooming to pressurise young Colin to produce to such a point that he did as he did. If he is still chums with George that says as much as my contentions on here that z was and is an honourable man bitterly disappointed and let down by the NAS debacle. Would that one could say the same for other NAS alumni. One cannot. And, unlike George some of 'em continue to prosper by plying their PM trade and peddling their dubious shows and books to this very day. There may even now be other 'young Colins' out there. If there are it'l be all over the papers yet again once more fraud is uncovered. And we all suffer for that as we did last time and all the times before and since.

An interesting comment KK.

I suppose for all those who were not involved in the NAS or who are unaware of what actually took place, it is difficult to know exactly what you are suggesting, though I do think I have some inkling about whom in one respect you may be referring.

Perhaps it is time to really talk more openly about what brought the NAS to a close and to try and sort the facts from the rumours and suppositions. In the end, it is only by us all being honest and by being willing to talk openly about past events that have caused schisms that we can learn and move on, wiser and better people.

I'm all for honesty Lis, but facts and true evidence are sometimes hard to find. I spent about two years as an active member of NAS, but remained a member until it closed in 2004. I still have all the Ark Reviews. I have a copy of "By your side" by Colinn Fry, and Stewart Alexander's book " An extraordinary journey". I socialised a bit with Colin, Stewart, and Ray Lister, and knew others like Alf Winchester and George quite well. I have no idea what "evil sods" are referred to or any evidence for that, sources? I will answer any questions put to me, I'm no authority, just one of the crowd, and of course George was one of the elite for so many years, so should know everything.

I was amused by a reference to George in Colin's book. Quote:
" I just knew I could really do with an older friend. I did my first demo at the NAS and there was a gent there called George Cranley. He came over and introduced himself. 'I have heard quite a bit about you, young man,' he said, 'most of it quite good'. He looked over his glasses and added, ' But if I don't think you are very good I shall have no hesitation in telling you'
I just thought he was the most rude and arrogant old curmudgeon. But over quite a short period of time he became one of my closest friends and he also became a mentor. He has been a great supporter of my work.
He's not universally popular and over the years a number of people have tried to break our friendship. But I choose my friends- I don't have them chosen for me- and George and his wife both remain among my dearest friends." ( Book published 2010).

How like the George I knew, and discussed with on forums, and how honest the comments by Colin.

Can you confirm or otherwise Normy that in Ark Review list of officials in some of them Colin is referred to as the 'Youth Officer' or 'Youth... something official'?
I am sure I did not dream that but threw my few Arks away ages ago I am sure Colin was Youth Officer or similar title in the newsletter.
Cheers
Pete

Colin went on the Committee, then became Education and Training Officer, in 1999. In fact, I still have a NAS Report Book, in which Colin gave the circle I was sitting in advice and support in response to my circle reports and questions.
I was by no means youthful..... Can't see owt about that