Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by Janhar Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:42 am

Admin wrote:
mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

I agree Mac. I can't imagine anyone - no matter where you stand on this dispute, would wish the potential loss of a home, personal and professional reputation.
And I wouldn't want any well-meaning individual to find themselves in any such at-risk situation because of another person's misdeeds, omissions or controlling influence. Folk might end up getting tarred by the same brush.

As I wrote earlier, I really do hope any unheard 'lurkers' here have checked that they've been doing what they're supposed to have been doing and maybe pass that message on to any others who might want to check their own positions.

I would take no pleasure from seeing good folk go down the crapper.

It looks like everyone is beginning to hold their breath over this with the AGM so close, just how far is Madam President prepared to push her very controlling powers at the AGM. Of course as a Private Company Limited by guarantee only the nominated members may attend unless invited by the Chairperson. So we will need feedback from an attendee who gets to stay for the whole session.

I thought anyone could go. The zoom details for it have been published. I took a screenshot of them though not really intending to try and get in it. I could only dip in and out anyway.

by Lis Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:58 am

https://www.snu.org.uk/Event/snu-agm-2024

Attending Via Zoom

Sat 28th Sat 28th
Meeting ID Passcode
890 5131 0768 snuagm24
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Sun 29th Sun 29th
Meeting ID Passcode
815 4006 5309 snuagm24
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AGM Documents

Click below image to view the AGM documents you need to participate.

by Admin Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:00 am

Interesting I wonder if I said I was a reporter from SpirtualismLink they would let me in

by Janhar Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:08 am

This link gives details of motions etc

https://www.snu.org.uk/Handlers/Download.ashx?IDMF=862c4ac0-eedd-4123-b112-564ed413af22

by notabigjump Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:18 pm

All is not looking so rosy at the college now the 20 tutors are unable to work there,

Whilst the mediation is in progress several sources report JW as having said she won’t have them back ever! If that’s true, charity money being spent on a futile mediation exercise should be investigated. These firms don’t come cheap!

The photo debacle has been replaced quietly by all the 20 tutor bios being removed from the website and leaving just a tutor photo, a name and ‘not available in 2025.’ It’s all smoke and mirrors and nobody is fooled.

I was watching a promotional video for an upcoming course the other day and it was obvious the medium was reading from a well prepared script. The words used the same terminology we have heard many times from Mr Jacobs for years.

It's apparent Simon James has got increasingly close to the top tier over the past few months. And surprise surprise, a tv crew has been at AFC this week, filming Simon.. although it has been causing trouble.

Apparently, he decided to hold a secret seance, inviting only selected students - to the disgust and upset of the rest of the course. They all pay the same and many have expensive travel costs added on too. So wrong and misguided. This is how trust is lost and a week of development, is reduced to hurt and injustice.

I don't blame the students being disillusioned.. This behaviour is the epitome of the top tier at the moment.

All is not what it's sugar coated to be on social media...

by Slatewriter Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:32 pm

There are also glowing reports of recent courses doing the rounds, which are most likely being encouraged from the inside. Bookings are down so it's probably nothing more than a sales tactic.

The recent promotional videos are nothing special either, it's the same tutors telling the same story. With all the extra work they've given themselves, they'll soon become even more tired than they're beginning to look.

by mac Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:03 pm

Admin wrote:Interesting I wonder if I said I was a reporter from SpirtualismLink they would let me in

And maybe cover your travel and subsistence expenses? Laughing

by notabigjump Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:45 pm

Slatewriter wrote:There are also glowing reports of recent courses doing the rounds, which are most likely being encouraged from the inside. Bookings are down so it's probably nothing more than a sales tactic.

The recent promotional videos are nothing special either, it's the same tutors telling the same story. With all the extra work they've given themselves, they'll soon become even more tired than they're beginning to look.

Is there any reliable data as to how much bookings are down by?

by Slatewriter Sat Sep 21, 2024 1:52 pm

notabigjump wrote:Is there any reliable data as to how much bookings are down by?

No stats, just word of mouth

by unseenfriends Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:31 pm

notabigjump wrote:Whilst the mediation is in progress several sources report JW as having said she won’t have them back ever!

I’ve also heard the same from sources close to her. Apparently that decision was made some time ago, presumably as a result of the complaint about her.

by notabigjump Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:14 pm

unseenfriends wrote:
notabigjump wrote:Whilst the mediation is in progress several sources report JW as having said she won’t have them back ever!

I’ve also heard the same from sources close to her. Apparently that decision was made some time ago, presumably as a result of the complaint about her.

It's frightening that being elected as the president of a charity, one could assume it confers the ability to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. Whoever gave her that idea (possibly herself) needs a good talking to about the charity belonging to the union and not the president.

by mac Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:31 pm

unseenfriends wrote:
notabigjump wrote:Whilst the mediation is in progress several sources report JW as having said she won’t have them back ever!

I’ve also heard the same from sources close to her. Apparently that decision was made some time ago, presumably as a result of the complaint about her.

I doubt she made a decision so much as just reacted angrily and then just stuck to her guns. Based on what's been 'heard' in this long thread my only slight surprise is that the admission would have been made openly and fairly publicly.

The reality was always that the tutors were finished with the College when the rift happened - unless the bod in charge got replaced by someone with a very different approach.

by mac Sat Sep 21, 2024 8:37 pm

notabigjump wrote:
unseenfriends wrote:
notabigjump wrote:Whilst the mediation is in progress several sources report JW as having said she won’t have them back ever!

I’ve also heard the same from sources close to her. Apparently that decision was made some time ago, presumably as a result of the complaint about her.

It's frightening that being elected as the president of a charity, one could assume it confers the ability to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. Whoever gave her that idea (possibly herself) needs a good talking to about the charity belonging to the union and not the president.

I think it's more just a modern business principle deployed by ruthless employers. It's hard to be sure what she thinks about the union of Spiritualists as opposed to the SNU/AFC business.

by Admin Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:05 am

Very good points except good busimness management policy is far more enlightened than the way the SNU is being run, you almost have to go bacl to the Dark Satanic Mills for this type of behaviour,

Yes the President learnt early to control the Spin, have a look at the current and last address against the numbers beneath them and you will see some beautiful legerdemain.

She has total control of the spin cycle, SNU blog,SNU facebook page. IM facebook page, AFC facebook page, The Presidents Annual Reports and her Blog (even 80% of the time Paul Jacobs FB page seems tied in). The costs of this and the legal fees jump at you in the 31st Dec 2023 accounts, I bet they leap out even more when this years accounts are prepared.

It is clear she does not want them back, now if that comment could be verified I doubt that the Charity Commissioner would be amused.

Arbitration may well agree the Tutors were right and should win but equally agree that the relationships between the parties are so damaged it would be impossible for them to return to the AFC, granting compensation and damages.

Herein lies a very interesting story, an act by the President, which should never have happened now cost the SNU money to make the the damage good. The President has all the power in the SNU and cannot be touched. Realistically under the charities rules, having taken an action which was wrong she and her fellows on the Governing board (the NEC) should be liable to pay the damages and refund the legal and arbitration costs involved, especially as the complaint committee upheld the Tutors complaint initially. Who si going to be able to make that happen. Now alternatively one wonders what the legal effect of the Tutors turning down teh compensation and insisting on being returned to the Tutor body by legal action would have?

by Admin Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:22 am

Hmm thanks the Leslie Flint Trust maybe some of today's NEC should listen to this. Would that we had people of this ability running the SNU https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2499-1934-bbc-broadcast-by-ernest-oaten#22293

by mac Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:04 am

Admin wrote:Very good points except good busimness management policy is far more enlightened than the way the SNU is being run, you almost have to go bacl to the Dark Satanic Mills for this type of behaviour,

I didn't say it was good business management only that it looks like: "....modern business principle deployed by ruthless employers. Ruthless looks to be the president's style. What you've said yourself seems to bear this out and it's not hard to find other businesses where similar behaviours have been seen.

by mac Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:28 am

Admin wrote:

It is clear she does not want them back, now if that comment could be verified I doubt that the Charity Commissioner would be amused.

Perhaps not but in reality what could be done?

Arbitration may well agree the Tutors were right and should win but equally agree that the relationships between the parties are so damaged it would be impossible for them to return to the AFC, granting compensation and damages.

There's never any certainty about the way arbitration will go and even with a settlement the damage would be irreparable. The tutors are likely so hurt that anything less than a return to their former status would be unacceptable to them and that ain't likely to happen so their value to the College has been lost for good.

Herein lies a very interesting story, an act by the President, which should never have happened now cost the SNU money to make the the damage good. The President has all the power in the SNU and cannot be touched. Realistically under the charities rules, having taken an action which was wrong she and her fellows on the Governing board (the NEC) should be liable to pay the damages and refund the legal and arbitration costs involved, especially as the complaint committee upheld the Tutors complaint initially. Who si going to be able to make that happen.

I fear the likelihood of forcing the bods responsible and accountable to pay personally is a long shot - I'd love to be proven wrong though. My guess is that the situation was factored in from the outset and considered not a significant risk.

Now alternatively one wonders what the legal effect of the Tutors turning down teh compensation and insisting on being returned to the Tutor body by legal action would have?

The legal situation was the SNU/AFC were never employers and that the tutors would not be able to insist on being taken back on previous short-term, self-employment contract terms. Even if they could it would be an almost impossibly-difficult return to any previously-good working arrangements after all the months of acrimony.

Similar has been seen where an employee found to have been discriminated against (or a whistle-blower) returns to a former job but is so stressed and unsupported by managers that (s)he finds the situation impossible to deal with and has to resign.

by mac Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:49 am

notabigjump wrote:All is not looking so rosy at the college now the 20 tutors are unable to work there,

Whilst the mediation is in progress several sources report JW as having said she won’t have them back ever! If that’s true, charity money being spent on a futile mediation exercise should be investigated. These firms don’t come cheap!

The photo debacle has been replaced quietly by all the 20 tutor bios being removed from the website and leaving just a tutor photo, a name and ‘not available in 2025.’ It’s all smoke and mirrors and nobody is fooled.

I was watching a promotional video for an upcoming course the other day and it was obvious the medium was reading from a well prepared script. The words used the same terminology we have heard many times from Mr Jacobs for years.

It's apparent Simon James has got increasingly close to the top tier over the past few months. And surprise surprise, a tv crew has been at AFC this week, filming Simon.. although it has been causing trouble.

Apparently, he decided to hold a secret seance, inviting only selected students - to the disgust and upset of the rest of the course. They all pay the same and many have expensive travel costs added on too. So wrong and misguided. This is how trust is lost and a week of development, is reduced to hurt and injustice.

I don't blame the students being disillusioned.. This behaviour is the epitome of the top tier at the moment.

All is not what it's sugar coated to be on social media...

In time all this will blow over.

New students will appear and will attend new courses. Those involved now - although hurt, angry and disillusioned - will have moved on.

It's all fresh and raw right now but in 12 months time my bet is that the whole business will have become similar to of the earlier Psychic News scandal with only a handful of individuals able - or interested enough - to recall many of the details.

by Janhar Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:20 am

mac wrote:

New students will appear and will attend new courses. Those involved now - although hurt, angry and disillusioned - will have moved on.

It's all fresh and raw right now but in 12 months time my bet is that the whole business will have become similar to of the earlier Psychic News scandal with only a handful of individuals able - or interested enough - to recall many of the details.

...,and just as with Paul Jacobs and Scott Milligan, some of the lost tutors may reappear under a new President in the future, if the College survives.

by mac Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:40 am

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:

New students will appear and will attend new courses. Those involved now - although hurt, angry and disillusioned - will have moved on.

It's all fresh and raw right now but in 12 months time my bet is that the whole business will have become similar to of the earlier Psychic News scandal with only a handful of individuals able - or interested enough - to recall many of the details.
...,and just as with Paul Jacobs and Scott Milligan, some of the lost tutors may reappear under a new President in the future, if the College survives.

quite so - There's no knowing what the future may bring....

by OnlyVisitingEarth Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:57 am

I have just come from reading a post on Facebook talking about a recording of Ernest Oaten that they first saw here, there was another one about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Both featured and often talked about on the SNU own pages. I found it very interesting what both Oaten and Doyle have to say about Spiritualism and in part their thoughts about not only the religion of Spiritualism but the Spiritualist National Union and why it was set up in the first place.

I do like to try and see the positive of every experience and especially the bad ones, I find there's always a lesson to be learnt or a different door to walk through in my own development. Having been I suppose involved along with others in this unfolding drama, finding out things that have been wilfully hidden from members and I'm sure there will be more revelations to come, I was going to say 'and be shocked about them' but I honestly do not think I will be.

The positive to me is that it's given me food for thought and to really ask myself what are my thoughts on Spiritualism, where do I stand, what are my own beliefs in it and do I really need to belong to a religion to move forward in my spiritual development, do I need paper in a frame on a wall, or is that just about my ego and bragging rights to say I can work for the Spirit World. As a wonderful tutor (Eileen Davies) at the college once told me, there is no religion in the spirit world.

I wonder if all this drama, intrigue, betrayal and power trips has got others thinking the same.

I am on the side of the 20 Tutors but maybe this is a sign that we have all ignored that we need to modernise and go forward with different ideas because the world needs all the help it can get and surely the loved ones we work with and for would rather we help their loved ones here on earth in a more practical and spiritual way than standing up and giving a prayer, addresses according to the Lord Denning ruling and SNU approved information in a contact in a church setting or on one of their mediumship nights. Please I'm not knocking or disrespecting churches and the work they do.

I remember reading how all the Spiritualist movement had a big push forward because of the World Wars, people needed to know their loved ones were safe in the spirit world and I can't help feeling that maybe the same is happening now, or is it just fanciful thinking on my part.

Change is always hard, I do think the tutors should get their day in court, so to speak and I'm glad others were brave enough to speak out but maybe after this dies down their will be a parting of the ways and those that want to carry on under the thumb of those in charge of the SNU and AFC, maybe that is what they want and crave.

I do not, I've always been a free thinker and I already have a good team with some of the tutors here and my spirit helpers so onwards and upwards.

by Slatewriter Sun Sep 22, 2024 4:16 pm

Those who are left to run the show will only have the college's name and reputation to attract new students. Everyone else will be wise to them and steer clear.

by notabigjump Sun Sep 22, 2024 4:42 pm

mac wrote:
Admin wrote:

Now alternatively one wonders what the legal effect of the Tutors turning down teh compensation and insisting on being returned to the Tutor body by legal action would have?
The legal situation was the SNU/AFC were never employers and that the tutors would not be able to insist on being taken back on previous short-term, self-employment contract terms. Even if they could it would be an almost impossibly-difficult return to any previously-good working arrangements after all the months of acrimony.

My understanding is the laws have changed. Having worked for so long as contractors and followed prescribed training and awards, they do have some employment rights, with the SNU as their employer. We will have to see how this plays out.

by OnlyVisitingEarth Sun Sep 22, 2024 4:46 pm

I went and had a look on the college website as I had read they had taken the tutors information down and just left their photo's and not available 2025. I'm know thinking like was mentioned before that JW had no intention of having them back.
Also I went and looked on both JW and PJ pages and JW has given herself 12 courses and PJ has given himself 11 courses.
I wonder how JW can do her full time job as President of the Union while cavorting around the college for most of the year. As someone else has already said, I hope people want to be taught their type of mediumship training because there's bugger else to pick from, unless you want one of the new tutors or Simon and Brian. I am of the same mind as Slatewriter, that they might get newbies in but other than their own followers I can't see others wanting to spend that sort of money. Oh well off to pastures new then. I saw the new place Eileen Davies is doing her courses next year, I do not know if she is still going to run her AFC ones as well. but that new place looks wonderful and it's single room and all have its own bathroom, the price is comparable with a single room ensuite but the place looks amazing and not that far from AFC. Unfortunately I was too late to book her course there, it was fully booked in 2 days and I'm on a waiting list with many others. I would love the tutors back at AFC but if that is not possible then I will go elsewhere.

by mac Sun Sep 22, 2024 4:54 pm

We will indeed have to wait to see if the tutors have gained employment rights in the way you suggest.

My guess is that it will be the field of the employment law specialists to battle it out but only for establishing some compensation. The likelihood of their returning to employment looks remote as I suggested earlier. It will be a sorry end to the saga.

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