Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by Janhar Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:07 pm

mac wrote:
Janhar wrote:

The SNU is and always has been set in its ways.The purpose of that has been to maintain standards. It has to change its attitude to survive. These days people will not put up with that style of leadership. The tutors need more respect.
Old systems are often set in their ways just as old folk are! If the old ways better maintain good standards then change is not necessarily the best thing.

As for the style of SNU leadership, exactly which one are you suggesting they won't put up with - the old way or the new way? The AGM is fast approaching after which who knows which style may have prevailed?

They cannot continue the old style of leadership. It has served its time and now I think people are kicking against it. Just my opinion.

by notabigjump Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:36 pm

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:
Janhar wrote:

The SNU is and always has been set in its ways.The purpose of that has been to maintain standards. It has to change its attitude to survive. These days people will not put up with that style of leadership. The tutors need more respect.
Old systems are often set in their ways just as old folk are! If the old ways better maintain good standards then change is not necessarily the best thing.

As for the style of SNU leadership, exactly which one are you suggesting they won't put up with - the old way or the new way? The AGM is fast approaching after which who knows which style may have prevailed?
They cannot continue the old style of leadership. It has served its time and now I think people are kicking against it. Just my opinion.

I completely agree. The SNU needs a President to preside over the spiritual and religious day to day issues, including churches. An executive who meet with mutual respect for each others roles, to run the business with good representation from individual members.

The tutor dispute leads me to believe it would be healthier to have a non - teaching chairperson at the AFC, with a solid team representing tutors, staff, courses, students, individual members and day to day running. There should not be one person with their fingers in every pie who brings in their holiday friends to influence the operations.

A lot of issues I see could be resolved by changing the mindset. Instead of treating complaints and dissent with an NDA and the threat of removing membership and awards.

Crucial is adopting a new attitude of 'what can we do to help them? - how can we fix this for the greater good?'

by Janhar Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:59 pm

Posted by Mac
A lot of issues I see could be resolved by changing the mindset. Instead of treating complaints and dissent with an NDA and the threat of removing membership and awards.

Crucial is adopting a new attitude of 'what can we do to help them? - how can we fix this for the greater good?'

Janhar reply
Absolutely agree. You will need Divine Intervention to get it. Meanwhile, find your next President and when the 4 years are up make sure you have canvassed enough SNU members to vote for them. Good Luck.

by Admin Fri Sep 13, 2024 4:04 am

I totally agree notabigjump. The SNU needs a total restructure, I am sure our founders, when they saw the future and wrote those Articles of Association, never perceived a time in the future when the President ended up with such unfettered powers, or that that allowing bye laws to be passed, provided they are not legally different to the Articles, could result in the President being given such broad and draconian control over the General Meetings.

Obviously the Articles have changed over time, through lawful amendments at General Meetings, but it may appear that the changes, and the legal action of those other Bye Law changes have just accentuated the problem.

It is very unhealthy for an organisation to be left in a situation where its President has no checks or balances in place to contain their actions. In this case they can eject people, populate the committees with people of their choice etc.. I suspect the Founders may expected the Vice Presidents and the NEC to be more resilient and to oppose and stop any excessive action taken by the President.

However, back then it was much simpler. The SNU did not have ownership of most of the churches through the Trust System, it did not have a college and awards scheme, it did not do education or own extensive properties.

It is now a large organisation run by people most likely lacking all the technical skills needed for something of this complexity This is made worse by the progressive centralisation of control onto a single person. This places great pressure on that individual so their time in office has an undue impact on the members and the direction the SNU takes, whether they are wise or unwise in their actions.

Clearly there are some simple organisational changes which would take the pressure off and ensure appropriate skills.

A professional property manage,r overseeing the property portfolio, liaising with the churches and colleges on repair & investment needs would take a big problem away from the Presidents desk.

The colleges need their own GM, a professional to run them as appropriate venues for the students to visit who liaises with an appropriate team of tutors, to identify appropriate courses and Tutors to run them.

In terms of education there should be a group working upon that and the accreditation courses CSNU, DSNU, TSNU, OSNU and MSNU. This should include the President, selected church leaders and some of the Tutors.

In the same way as Martin Colclough tried to set up courses which are Government Accredited (now here in his new rather commercial venture https://www.thepsychecentre.com/training-and-awards/ ) this group should also try to ensure that the SNU courses are approved as government certificates; which always remain with the individual like a degree.

OK then they have to work at a certificated practising add on, and get rid of the whiff of cronyism and dislikes that rumour suggest mar the current process.

Still plenty for the President to focus upon beyond that

However, checks and balances need to be addressed There are 2 Companies SNU and SNU Trust. I believe that the leading Trustee in the Trust Company should become the independent Chairman, even if it has to be a paid role and his position should be one elected by the trustees, a group the President should be on as one among equals The trustee body appoint new trustees from appropriate candidates.

This body should be the one that the complaints committee is appointed by and reports to eradicating any issues relating to NEC members. The NEC becomes a management team and a new Board is formed with the VPs', President, Chairman and 2 other trustees and 1 other NEC members.

The changes in Bye Laws to be approved by the trustees and ratified at the AGM so the members are involved. How the members are informed of what is going on should be decided there but surely much greater transparency is needed.

I suppose I am unlikely to see pigs flying any time soon.

Even so I believe existing members should not walk away if everything goes against them just work to find new members and prepare for anything that happens quietly while looking for any further slips with thos managing group.

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 6:48 am

That's a great analysis, Jim, along with sensible suggestions for prompting discussions about a future SNU.

You've added shoots and young leaves to the root-and-branch changes I suggested early on the SNU urgently needs. How they could be discussed and voted-on, though, I have no idea. In the same vein as your flying pigs metaphor it would be a near-impossible sell to the recently returned head turkey that she should now vote for Christmas.....

It seems to me that the outcome of the AGM is all-but certain unless voting members turn up at the virtual AGM and vote down any unwelcome, proposed changes.

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 6:51 am

Janhar wrote:Posted by Mac

The quoted posting was actually from notabigjump... Smile

A lot of issues I see could be resolved by changing the mindset. Instead of treating complaints and dissent wit.....................d enough SNU members to vote for them. Good Luck.

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 6:57 am

quote: "In the same way as Martin Colclough tried to set up courses which are Government Accredited (now here in his new rather commercial venture https://www.thepsychecentre.com/training-and-awards/ ) this group should also try to ensure that the SNU courses are approved as government certificates; which always remain with the individual like a degree."

The certificates were mentioned earlier in the context (I think it was) of their being able to be taken away from those awarded them. What a bizarre situation unless there had been misuse of them.

by Janhar Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:50 am

mac wrote:
Janhar wrote:Posted by Mac
The quoted posting was actually from notabigjump...

A lot of issues I see could be resolved by changing the mindset. Instead of treating complaints and dissent wit.....................d enough SNU members to vote for them. Good Luck.

Apologies to notabigjump. Thanks for the heads up Mac. Not used to this forum stuff yet. Smile

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:53 am

It's an easy mistake when there are multiple quotes. Smile

by Jbodoski Fri Sep 13, 2024 7:55 am

Can I just correct mac, the courses are accredited by Focus Awards an Ofqual recognised awarding body who are recognised by the government as the Office of Qualifications. Their recent ventre Psyche that is, is that they're now accredited to teach the Level 3 award in education and training AET, and Level 3 award in Assessing achievement in the work place. These qualifications can be done using Spiritual disciplines to achieve them.

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 8:06 am

Jbodoski wrote:Can I just correct mac, the courses are accredited by Focus Awards an Ofqual recognised awarding body who are recognised by the government as the Office of Qualifications. Their recent ventre Psyche that is, is that they're now accredited to teach the Level 3 award in education and training AET, and Level 3 award in Assessing achievement in the work place. These qualifications can be done using Spiritual disciplines to achieve them.

I'm happy to have the situation explained to me. I will readily acknowledge I'm an ignoramus about the way qualifications are achieved and recognition awarded by the SNU.

What I was concerned about was something another contributor mentioned. quote, onlyvisitingearth, Sep 10: "People are not commenting or liking more because maybe they are not members of this site.Unfortunately those at the top have a strangle hold now on all the committees and members risk losing all their awards that they have paid a lot of money for and worked very hard and many years to get if they say too much."

I thought - probably mistakenly - what was being inferred was that awards could subsequently be revoked by the SNU hence rendered worthless.

by Admin Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:10 am

Jbodoski wrote:Can I just correct mac, the courses are accredited by Focus Awards an Ofqual recognised awarding body who are recognised by the government as the Office of Qualifications. Their recent ventre Psyche that is, is that they're now accredited to teach the Level 3 award in education and training AET, and Level 3 award in Assessing achievement in the work place. These qualifications can be done using Spiritual disciplines to achieve them.

Thanks for that Jbodski, chatted with Martin recently as I knew of the problems he had experienced with the SNU.

We had a brilliant US Medium visit us at the very start of 2007. She and her husband had established the Centre of Spiritual Enlightenment to work to create courses for the NSAC similar to the government approved certificates and diplomas in New York State. Sadly the NSAC let it fall away.

We thought about doing it but lack of people who understood the rules needed plus becoming "tall poppies" meant we let it go. Great idea no angry organisation can remove your certificate.

by Jbodoski Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:25 am

Martin's or should I say Psyche's qualifications are for life. Also, I wasn't calling Mac an ignoramus, merely pointing out that Martin likes their qualifications described properly to avoid any misunderstandings. What he wrote about SNU awards was correct lose or give up membership, lose SNU awards. That is despite how much you pay to gain them.

by notabigjump Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:33 am

Jbodoski wrote:Martin's or should I say Psyche's qualifications are for life. Also, I wasn't calling Mac an ignoramus, merely pointing out that Martin likes their qualifications described properly to avoid any misunderstandings. What he wrote about SNU awards was correct lose or give up membership, lose SNU awards. That is despite how much you pay to gain them.

It is so wrong that SNU award holders pay so much in fees, time, study and travel - to have them obselete if they are no longer members. Or at the whim of the NEC, removed.

However, I do know there was a rule change and there is now the permission for people to keep them if they leave, BUT this has to be approved by the NEC. It is not automatic.

We need to seriously consider the aforementioned approach of 'how can we help?' 'what can we do for them?' Rather than how can we punish them for not wanting to be our members anymore?

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:40 am

Jbodoski wrote:Martin's or should I say Psyche's qualifications are for life. Also, I wasn't calling Mac an ignoramus, merely pointing out that Martin likes their qualifications described properly to avoid any misunderstandings. What he wrote about SNU awards was correct lose or give up membership, lose SNU awards. That is despite how much you pay to gain them.

It was I who referred to myself as an ignoramus because I was and to a large degree I still feel I am in respect of the awards/qualifications/certificates or whatever. Additionally I'm now puzzled about who 'Martin' or 'Psyche' are???

Am I right in thinking, though, that SNU awards are somehow lost if one gives up membership of the Union? That sounds odd and I don't understand what it means in practical terms other than (perhaps?) a member would no longer be able to work at the Findlay College if the award were annulled. Is that correct?

If the awards/qualifications or whatever apply ONLY to and within the SNU or AFC is it being said that they should also be recognised OUTSIDE of the organisation?

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:46 am

notabigjump wrote:
Jbodoski wrote:Martin's or should I say Psyche's qualifications are for life. Also, I wasn't calling Mac an ignoramus, merely pointing out that Martin likes their qualifications described properly to avoid any misunderstandings. What he wrote about SNU awards was correct lose or give up membership, lose SNU awards. That is despite how much you pay to gain them.

It is so wrong that SNU award holders pay so much in fees, time, study and travel - to have them obselete if they are no longer members. Or at the whim of the NEC, removed.

However, I do know there was a rule change and there is now the permission for people to keep them if they leave, BUT this has to be approved by the NEC. It is not automatic.

We need to seriously consider the aforementioned approach of 'how can we help?' 'what can we do for them?' Rather than how can we punish them for not wanting to be our members anymore?

I must be thick! If it's an award then in practical terms how can that award be removed from the possession of an individual? Does someone physically take it from the award-holder? And what could an award-holder do with the award if it were taken OUTSIDE of the SNU while still a member of the SNU?

by notabigjump Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:48 am

mac wrote:
Jbodoski wrote:Martin's or should I say Psyche's qualifications are for life. Also, I wasn't calling Mac an ignoramus, merely pointing out that Martin likes their qualifications described properly to avoid any misunderstandings. What he wrote about SNU awards was correct lose or give up membership, lose SNU awards. That is despite how much you pay to gain them.

It was I who referred to myself as an ignoramus because I was and to a large degree I still feel I am in respect of the awards/qualifications/certificates or whatever. Additionally I'm now puzzled about who 'Martin' or 'Psyche' are???

Am I right in thinking, though, that SNU awards are somehow lost if one gives up membership of the Union? That sounds odd and I don't understand what it means in practical terms other than (perhaps?) a member would no longer be able to work at the Findlay College if the award were annulled. Is that correct?

Yes Mac. Spot on.

If the awards/qualifications or whatever apply ONLY to and within the SNU or AFC is it being said that they should also be recognised OUTSIDE of the organisation?

As the largest Spiritualist organisation in the UK and possibly further, it is an assumption that it would be somewhat respected elsewhere

by notabigjump Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:53 am

mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:
Jbodoski wrote:Martin's or should I say Psyche's qualifications are for life. Also, I wasn't calling Mac an ignoramus, merely pointing out that Martin likes their qualifications described properly to avoid any misunderstandings. What he wrote about SNU awards was correct lose or give up membership, lose SNU awards. That is despite how much you pay to gain them.

It is so wrong that SNU award holders pay so much in fees, time, study and travel - to have them obselete if they are no longer members. Or at the whim of the NEC, removed.

However, I do know there was a rule change and there is now the permission for people to keep them if they leave, BUT this has to be approved by the NEC. It is not automatic.

We need to seriously consider the aforementioned approach of 'how can we help?' 'what can we do for them?' Rather than how can we punish them for not wanting to be our members anymore?

I must be thick! If it's an award then in practical terms how can that award be removed from the possession of an individual? Does someone physically take it from the award-holder? And what could an award-holder do with the award if it were taken OUTSIDE of the SNU while still a member of the SNU?

No it is not physically taken back. Just the threat seems to be enough. What on earth could they do if you still used them? If a person is awarded the Certificate, they put CSNU after their name. As they are only 'in house' awards, I can't see any legal action that could deter a person from still doing that if they wished. In the same way a person can call themselves anything they like.

This how ridiculous the whole system is - it's fear based on nothing really. NO legitimacy.

by Jbodoski Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:07 am

How do I PM someone please?

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:10 am

notabigjump wrote:

I must be thick! If it's an award then in practical terms how can that award be removed from the possession of an individual? Does someone physically take it from the award-holder? And what could an award-holder do with the award if it were taken OUTSIDE of the SNU while still a member of the SNU?

No it is not physically taken back. Just the threat seems to be enough.

The threat of WHAT? Coming round to your home and forcing entry to remove your certificate?

What on earth could they do if you still used them? If a person is awarded the Certificate, they put CSNU after their name. As they are only 'in house' awards, I can't see any legal action that could deter a person from still doing that if they wished. In the same way a person can call themselves anything they like.

exactly!! But equally exactly HOW could you use your certificate (or whatever) in a way that would somehow be unlawful? Why would you stop being the individual to whom an award / certificate had been given for merit? Unless you misused your award, behaved inappropriately or faced charges in law. THEN I could see a reason to revoke someone's certification.

This how ridiculous the whole system is - it's fear based on nothing really. NO legitimacy.

Yes the whole business deserves ridicule - the idea of award removal is archaic and bizarre. Not only does the idea have no legitimacy it is plain barmy to me. Are folk really getting wound up about such a crackpot practice - and/or the threat of it?

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:16 am

Jbodoski wrote:How do I PM someone please?

Tap or click their username, look for the 'mp' button with a chess-piece icon in the page that appears - that allows you to send the individual a private message.

by notabigjump Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:33 am

mac wrote:
notabigjump wrote:

I must be thick! If it's an award then in practical terms how can that award be removed from the possession of an individual? Does someone physically take it from the award-holder? And what could an award-holder do with the award if it were taken OUTSIDE of the SNU while still a member of the SNU?

No it is not physically taken back. Just the threat seems to be enough.
The threat of WHAT? Coming round to your home and forcing entry to remove your certificate?

What on earth could they do if you still used them? If a person is awarded the Certificate, they put CSNU after their name. As they are only 'in house' awards, I can't see any legal action that could deter a person from still doing that if they wished. In the same way a person can call themselves anything they like.
exactly!! But equally exactly HOW could you use your certificate (or whatever) in a way that would somehow be unlawful? Why would you stop being the individual to whom an award / certificate had been given for merit? Unless you misused your award, behaved inappropriately or faced charges in law. THEN I could see a reason to revoke someone's certification.

This how ridiculous the whole system is - it's fear based on nothing really. NO legitimacy.
Yes the whole business deserves ridicule - the idea of award removal is archaic and bizarre. Not only does the idea have no legitimacy it is plain barmy to me. Are folk really getting wound up about such a crackpot practice - and/or the threat of it?

I agree Mac however, we have already seen that people have stated that they would leave if it were not for losing their hard earned awards. Perhaps, they will see how ridiculous the system is and no longer worry, if they really want to leave. Re-joining is always an option if the SNU improves anyway.

by Jbodoski Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:38 am

Thank you mac

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:41 am

I do hope our silent members and non-member visitors will note our discourse on this specific matter and feel reassured they need have no concerns if they are award holders.

by mac Fri Sep 13, 2024 10:41 am

Jbodoski wrote:Thank you mac

my pleasure Smile

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