Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by mac Fri Aug 30, 2024 7:59 am

Jbodoski wrote:It says in 2009 there were 14000 members. This was actually wrong. In 2010 the NEC decided to work out true numbers of IMs. It was found that they had not audited membership for several years. They had kept on members who had lapsed, left and passed away and the actual number after the audit was 2700 paid up members. It should have woken them up but sadly it has been a sinking ship for many years.

That was 2010 you say? Are there any verified, up-to-date figures about membership and categories of membership?

by Lis Fri Aug 30, 2024 8:41 am

Poster Jbodoski has enlightened us by saying that in 2009-2010 there were not 14,000 paid up members but just 2700!

The SNU books were out by 11,300!

How very lax indeed is the management of the SNU that it failed to notice there was a discrepancy between alleged membership numbers and the income received from membership paid. There would have been a very large discrepancy that one might have thought was quite difficult to overlook.

Now the latest figure is said to be 2113 members so a further 587 members have disappeared.

With 1121 votes Jackie Wright is now claiming she won 70% of the vote (her 1121 and Bruton's 470 totalling 1591 votes cast. But of the total votes available (2113 + 1585 + 70 = 3768) she in fact only got 29.8% of the possible 3768 votes.

A heck of a lot of people did not vote for her - 2,172 votes did not come her way. Seems to me her win is hardly something to crow about.

Lis

by notabigjump Fri Aug 30, 2024 8:47 am

Lis wrote:Poster Jbodoski has enlightened us by saying that in 2009-2010 there were not 14,000 paid up members but just 2700!

The SNU books were out by 11,300!

How very lax indeed is the management of the SNU that it failed to notice there was a discrepancy between alleged membership numbers and income from membership paid. There would have been a very large discrepancy, that one might have thought was quite difficult to overlook.

Lis

Although a long time ago now, would that be false accounting it their figures included a total income based on an assumed approx 14,000 members?

by Admin Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:03 am

Those 2009 numbers came from Geoff Griffith in a piece that may Have an called Heartache in the numbers for the late Spirit of PN. Geoff would be mortified to know they were wrong. He made some great suggestions to improve matters, ideas that have been ignored.

https://spiritofpn.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/heartaches-by-the-numbers/

by notabigjump Fri Aug 30, 2024 9:24 am

Admin wrote:Those 2009 numbers came from Geoff Griffith in a piece that may Have an called Heartache in the numbers for the late Spirit of PN. Geoff would be mortified to know they were wrong. He made some great suggestions to improve matters, ideas that have been ignored.

From the perspective of building up the AFC income without the 20 popular tutors (who have loyal returning students), the new tutors will not have the benefit of years of work there, to build up a following before the whole ship is sunk.

by Admin Sat Aug 31, 2024 12:50 am

The SNU membership numbers are scary. Geoff Griffith reported them as 14,629 in 1009 but after an audit finding dead bodies and skeletons in the cupboard, plus unpaid members they drop to 2,700. In one swoop the relevancy of the SNU is destroyed, 11,929 non existent members. Yet no one told the membership about this, a level of membership that is well beyond a crisis.

Someone needed to shout loudly, the membership system must be totally shot, and are any of the accounting numbers accurate?

Do not tell me they are audited. After the big and costly cases which auditors faced in the 1980's after major business crashed and the auditors became liable they, with the agreement with the entire World's regulatory bodies, allowed a new clause that auditors insist you sign as part of their agreement to conduct an audit. They make you accept that their audit is done on the basis of the figures supplied to them, they no longer are required to dig under the covers.

A current example glares at us on this thread Membership income in 2022 was $82,592 yet 2113 members at $26 is only $54938. Are there now more paid members not recorded in the membership list that may have been denied a vote?

The reality is that the SNU has been in a crisis for 14 years and no one seems to have considered what to do about it let alone making the issue public. Everyone has been far to busy with politics, power and personality games. Seeing this shipwreck occur is like watching the NEC shuffling deck chairs on the deck of the Titanic Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 10 593759

Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 10 593759

by Admin Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:38 am

There is one undeniable fact about the SNU...It is wealthy

Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 10 Balanc10

There are more than enough reserves to put matters right. I am also going to be a heretic, given where the AFC is geographically placed, selling it, rather than pumping in the millions to make it right, must be a consideration.Guesses on its value surely 10 million or more. It also takes the, so called crown jewels, out of the hands of the Presidents, who to often seem to covet it as a personal fiefdom.

Restructure tutor groups around the DC's running workshops, basic development, mediumship, advanced mediumship, train the trainer plus how to speak and the history and philosophy of Spiritualism.

Promote Spiritualism, in the late 1940's Barbanell. one of Spiritualism's greatest Propagandists, traveled all round the UK, He spoke, with Meurig Morris providing Trance, add a great medium. Let people know we are here. True he fell out with the SNU, more than once.

Do not over govern and get professionals, sympathetic to Spiritualism, to run the operation. Re-organise take the dictatorial power from the President and cut the cult of personality.

This is a Spiritual Union not a Trade Union. I dealt with one, as part of Whitbread Merseyside Management Team in Liverpool, we do not need union management calling on people in the dark, with threats, knee capping, expulsion or other unspecified harms. Yet it seems to symbolically describe what members have felt with the last and current President, a fear to act in any way to incur their displeasure.

All the fear needs to be removed so that the SNU can grow again.

Make the organisation strong and vibrant using the funds to help. I am sure Arthur Findlay would rather see that than a concentration on his home being a mausoleum, not entering into the scientific research he hoped for.

We may even be able to start our own scientific research.

OK, I am and have always been a bit of an idealist, with what seem to be obsolete ethics and morals. The SNU has the President it has, someone elected by less than 30% of the members, with God Like Powers to reward or destroy. I doubt the issue of the 20 Tutors has helped the growth of membership, or the success of the AFC in any way, so maybe a first step is back from the brink by Minister Jackie Wright bow

and her minion Paul Jacobs.But that, sadly seems unlikely

If there is no back step then, given that in the last census for the UK there were still, surprisingly, over 30,000 people who said they were Spiritualists, then those 20 may need to be there spearhead of a new organisation, loosely connecting the independent Spiritualist Groups in the UK and maybe overseas

Those 20 Tutors could be vital links in this work

Just a thought anyway.

by notabigjump Sat Aug 31, 2024 7:51 am

Some very interesting thoughts Jim and a pragmatic and realistic approach. I am not sure that selling the college is the answer. Thousands from across the globe, book courses and their stay is greatly enhanced by its history.

If we look at the SAGB and how negatively people were affected by its controversial sale, we see how much spiritualists' care about the places they go to for study and personal enlightenment, in the UK. Plus the AFC is residential and this makes it possible for people to attend from abroad and experience the intense micro world for their psychic explorations.

It is a major attraction for many, yet the science that Findlay wished to see progress, needs more attention.

The Uptons were instrumental in more recent work on the scientific aspect, bringing in notable parapsychologists to observe on their courses and run their own experiments. Also, a dedicated science week proved popular and was organised by Ken Smith.

Perhaps we need to consider the sale of the sister site of the Barbanell Centre before the AFC. Its purchase was controversial and it was not put to the members to decide if it was a good idea. The argument at the time, was that the decision had to be made rapidly and the time to wait for a vote would lose the sale.

However, although it had been a spiritualist centre, it is basically. a huge converted warehouse on an industrial estate. The greats of spiritualism, unlike Stansted Hall, are not associated with it. It has no airport within 10 minutes of a taxi ride and UK trains are in a dreadful state for anyone from abroad accessing it. A small block has been purchased and converted to 10 en suite rooms for residential use (including the teachers).

I know I would rather travel directly and stay within the walls of significant spiritualist history and beauty with like minded people, than a longer journey from the airport via train or bus to an industrial estate.

Why with so few members does the SNU need more than one major centre anyway?

by Lis Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:14 am

Hi notabigjump,

I am with you on this, I would not want to see AFC sold off for all the reasons that you have covered in your post. I can, however, see the logic in selling the Barbanell Centre, and focusing on the AFC, increasing time/energy/money/people in scientific investigation of psychic faculties and phenomena. Also a renewal of focus on the philosophy and history of the Spiritualist movement would be nice.

All the emphasis on the development of psychic and mediumistic faculties without an equal focus on the philosophy and science that underpins it, seem unbalanced to me.

Lis

by notabigjump Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:24 am

Lis wrote:Hi notabigjump,

I am with you on this, I would not want to see AFC sold off for all the reasons that you have covered in your post. I can, however, see the logic in selling the Barbanell Centre, and focusing on the AFC, increasing time/energy/money/people in scientific investigation of psychic faculties and phenomena. Also a renewal of focus on the philosophy and history of the Spiritualist movement would be nice.

All the emphasis on the development of psychic and mediumistic faculties without an equal focus on the philosophy and science that underpins it, seem unbalanced to me.

Lis

I totally agree and for many, the religious aspect of spiritualism is redundant. Yet the philosophy is so vital and gives more scope for personal growth. Sadly, philosophy weeks do not attract enough people. It should then be a pre-requisite for all courses, with a compulsory percentage of content including philosophy.

by JNR Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:31 pm

Admin wrote:

A current example glares at us on this thread Membership income in 2022 was $82,592 yet 2113 members at $26 is only $54938. Are there now more paid members not recorded in the membership list that may have been denied a vote?

The churches also pay a membership/affiliation fee each year so that income will also be included on that line of the accounts.

I believe Geoff’s figures may have included Church Members. You can be a member of a church but not an Individual Member. Equally you can be both as they are different classes of membership

Church members are members of their church. They vote at the church’s AGM, but can’t vote at the SNU AGM. Instead, their church represents its members and votes on their behalf, which is why churches have 5 votes as they represent sometimes hundreds of church members who don’t have an individual voice in the SNU

From my best recollection there was always around 12,000 church members in the union and always a couple of thousand of what was called back then class b members, but got renamed to individual members.

The church member figures aren’t included within the SNU accounts as they are the churches’ members, and they are a separate legal entity. This is the case because if you go on the charity commission website every spiritualist church has its own charity number, send in their own returns etc.

I hope this helps

by Anniemillo1 Sat Aug 31, 2024 2:16 pm

Photograph one is what the photo gallery looked like a few days ago. Now JW has instructed staff that the 20 tutors photographs to be taken down. Photograph two. So looks like I wont be holding my breath waiting on arbritation.

Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 10 Afc_1_11

Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 10 Afc_ph11

Apologies unsure how to download the photographs.

by notabigjump Sat Aug 31, 2024 3:47 pm

It seems very unwise to be taking such actions before the dispute is resolved. It will only work against the SNU who are already fighting a reputation of ruling by dictatorship. How disrespectful and upsetting it must be for those teachers.

by notabigjump Sat Aug 31, 2024 3:49 pm

Apart from the tutor dispute, I have 3 independent reports today of people taking legal action against the SNU. Two are AFC employment related and the other is personal bullying and defamation. They're not going to come out smelling of roses anytime soon.

by Anniemillo1 Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:02 pm

So I was correct in legal action being taken. Do you know if the personal one is against the SNU or a particular person. If it is a particular person then the NEC should be doing what they done to a previous tutor. Stopped them teaching and stripped them of their awards before they even went to trial, even although the byelaws stated that they had to be found guilty first. So if the NEC has created this precedence then it should be for all. Unless of course it is one of the NEC and as usual they will close ranks.

by notabigjump Sat Aug 31, 2024 4:16 pm

Anniemillo1 wrote:So I was correct in legal action being taken. Do you know if the personal one is against the SNU or a particular person. If it is a particular person then the NEC should be doing what they done to a previous tutor. Stopped them teaching and stripped them of their awards before they even went to trial, even although the byelaws stated that they had to be found guilty first. So if the NEC has created this precedence then it should be for all. Unless of course it is one of the NEC and as usual they will close ranks.

I can't divulge personal details about the cases, but to your first question I believe it involves both.

by Slatewriter Sat Aug 31, 2024 8:36 pm

Anniemillo1 wrote:Photograph one is what the photo gallery looked like a few days ago. Now JW has instructed staff that the 20 tutors photographs to be taken down. Photograph two. So looks like I wont be holding my breath waiting on arbritation.

The difference between your two photos is startling. But looking carefully at photo two, we can see who is top & center in the gallery (JW)

JW & the NEC have now lost the college so many wonderful tutors and mediums.
I can only feel despair at this, as though it really spells doom for the college.

I wonder how your photos would have looked today if others had joined the 20 tutors in their action?

by Lis Sat Aug 31, 2024 10:40 pm

JW top and center, and raised higher than everyone else by the layout chosen. No doubt deliberate!

So many valuable, respected and hardworking tutors apparently gone forever from the AFC.

So many students of the AFC who will now have to reconsider whether it would be worthwhile attending again when their favourite tutors are no longer there.

As for the tutors that currently remain - how many were really happy to sign those contracts (of self-employment with onerous terms), and how many did so because they were afraid to lose their spot on the wall?

Sadly, what I am hearing from some who have recently attended the AFC is that they won't be going again, as they are not sure they could have respect for the remaining tutors, not knowing what their stance in the current situation really is.

Do they support the actions of JW? Or did they sign on the dotted line just to stay a tutor?

by Admin Sun Sep 01, 2024 1:27 am

JNR wrote:
Admin wrote:

A current example glares at us on this thread Membership income in 2022 was $82,592 yet 2113 members at $26 is only $54938. Are there now more paid members not recorded in the membership list that may have been denied a vote?

The churches also pay a membership/affiliation fee each year so that income will also be included on that line of the accounts.

I believe Geoff’s figures may have included Church Members. You can be a member of a church but not an Individual Member. Equally you can be both as they are different classes of membership

...

The church member figures aren’t included within the SNU accounts as they are the churches’ members, and they are a separate legal entity. This is the case because if you go on the charity commission website every spiritualist church has its own charity number, send in their own returns etc.

I hope this helps

HI JNR Geoff did not include church members. His figures were direct SNU members, I worked closely with him on this and have all the SNU membership numbers somewhere, back to year dot. Jbodoski confirmed this in an earlier post

Jbodoski wrote:
It says in 2009 there were 14000 members. This was actually wrong. In 2010 the NEC decided to work out true numbers of IMs'. It was found that they had not audited membership for several years. They had kept on members who had lapsed, left and passed away and the actual number after the audit was 2700 paid up members. It should have woken them up but sadly it has been a sinking ship for many years.

I think, given that poster had also been on the NEC, its clear that what Jbodoski wrote is valid, it also fits Geoff (a significant figure in his own right, writing here https://spiritofpn.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/heartaches-by-the-numbers/ ) said, he would have been much more forceful writing this article post audit. I remain sure that the membership should have been notified when that discrepancy appeared; I have no idea why the then President, Vice Presidents and NEC did not notify people or raise it in the annual report.

We are not talking about church members, of which I doubt there are any complete records. However, do not the DC's get lists of church memberships, church attendances and potentially how many IM SNU members they have? Either you or Jbodoski may be able to enlighten us on that

I am aware every affiliated church gets 5 votes, which presumably the church committee decide by majority vote. I am aware that a church may have no SNU members and none on their committee
The one thing I was always aware of the DC's would seek to close churches that dropped below specific attendance levels. Sometimes against significant opposition.

I will check but I am sure the church affiliation figures are included elsewhere, like in the line of the P&L I posted. There is a clear line for Affiliation fee income which makes this clear to see, whereas the Memberships fall into other income and must be extracted from the notes to the accounts.

So no it is not the Church affiliations that cause the excess membership income. The discrepancy I have highlighted is a real discrepancy. It worries me that smoke and mirrors can be used to distract from significant issues, rather than to deal with them. I struggle to understand why the simple figures I and Geoff presented, can be challenged, especially after the analysis of the P&L and Jboldoski's confirmation of the membership audit. It makes me wonder what else may be buried deep in the figures, I am an expert in these areas, so just let me loose on the books and I will get to them. I look forward to the 2023 accounts and the first full year of Minister Jackie Wrights Presidency.

In honesty the NEC is the managing Committee and every member has a personal responsibility for the accuracy of the figures in the annual returns and a personal liability for any errors, that they should have been aware, or from any Presidential actions they were aware of that cause harm, especially if the court found them either careless or acting beyond their powers

by Admin Sun Sep 01, 2024 1:55 am

As to these photographs we now understand that the 20 Tutors have been banned from both the AFC and the Barbanell centre. Lovely stuff, Minister Jackie Wright showing what she truly believes of her opponents and reveling in her 70% win. Well if you fudge the statistics and a person with a sub 30% popularity level is allowed to get away with that claim. Clearly arbitration and mediation are not going to work.

Gee people look at the two photo's, I am sure the exiles will be working soon, so who you going to go to. My bets are it's not the AFC.

Oh just a final point with the number of Spiritualist in the census, just 1 in 15 are SNU members, my bets are that will fall substantially and a few Churches may try and exit the Trust (an almost impossible thing to do).

by Admin Sun Sep 01, 2024 1:59 am

I do have an extra concern at 2,113 members and falling; at what point could there be a petition to wind the charity up and who would be the beneficiaries of a disbursement of assets.

by Slatewriter Sun Sep 01, 2024 5:57 pm

as a strange, but not inappropriate, comparison to current events at the Arthur Findlay College, this has to be shared:

in the 2007 movie, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, during her time as headmistress of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry,
Dolores Umbridge had paintings removed from the walls, as part of her broader campaign to exert control and suppress dissent.
The paintings, which often contained the spirits of former headmasters and other notable figures, had the ability to communicate and provide advice, which could undermine her authority.
By having them taken down, Umbridge aimed to eliminate any potential sources of opposition or influence that could challenge her regime.
This act also reflected her authoritarian approach to governance, prioritizing her own power and the Ministry of Magic's agenda over the traditions and values of Hogwarts.

feel free to share online

Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC - Page 10 Hogwar10

by notabigjump Sun Sep 01, 2024 6:02 pm

Slatewriter wrote:as a strange, but not inappropriate, comparison to current events at the Arthur Findlay College, this has to be shared:

in the 2007 movie, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, during her time as headmistress of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry,
Dolores Umbridge had paintings removed from the walls, as part of her broader campaign to exert control and suppress dissent.
The paintings, which often contained the spirits of former headmasters and other notable figures, had the ability to communicate and provide advice, which could undermine her authority.
By having them taken down, Umbridge aimed to eliminate any potential sources of opposition or influence that could challenge her regime.
This act also reflected her authoritarian approach to governance, prioritizing her own power and the Ministry of Magic's agenda over the traditions and values of Hogwarts.

Oh this did make me chuckle. May I share the photo to my group? This would give them some levity in an otherwise depressing situation.

by Slatewriter Sun Sep 01, 2024 8:05 pm

Share away Very Happy

by mac Sun Sep 01, 2024 10:03 pm

So many words that I think I've lost my way.... Is the following correct?

An SNU church counts as 5 votes. (But who chooses to whom its vote goes?)

A member of a church who is also a member of the SNU gets a personal vote.

An SNU member who is not a church member gets a personal vote.

Can anyone else vote? What is the maximum number of votes overall that may be cast?

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