Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

Just made a big bucket of popcorn, the spiritualist movement dismantling itself from the inside out. Iam surprised it took this long.

I view the potential demise of the Modern Spiritualist movement with sadness.  I can't tell what YOUR emotion is though.....  

Hi iceblue long time since we last heard from you. Like Mac I am not happy to see the end of the Modern Spiritualist movement.

Well Iam not happy about it, nor am I sad about it. I think all the bullshit in-fighting represents current spiritualism quite well, it seems to be a constant no matter what country you live in. The places and faces may change but the principals of spiritualism wont.

I was recently in conversation with Joe Giannini whose description of the situation his organisation faces sounds very similar to that surrounding the SNU's activities.

Just as an aside, in the same open conversation I learned that the Corinthians are also a Spiritualism-based movement. I didn't know that!

iceblue wrote:Well Iam not happy about it, nor am I sad about it. I think all the bullshit in-fighting represents current spiritualism quite well, it seems to be a constant no matter what country you live in. The places and faces may change but the principals of spiritualism wont.

I'm comfortable describing myself a Modern Spiritualist but I'm not associated with any church and haven't been since 'my awakening' forty years ago. For that reason I had no connection to the SNU until I became an Independent Member a few years back. It's not been an uplifting experience which has encouraged me to become involved with what goes on. Even though I'm 77 I find the whole set-up and what goes on old-fashioned; it's mostly inappropriate for me.

If the SNU and Modern Spiritualism is to survive and to have any meaning in the future I believe both will need to change significantly. I doubt I'll still be around to see it though - at least not from this side of the divide!

In another twist regarding the Tutor dispute, a precedent set by the SNU may hold the key to the President stepping down and formation of a new committee, with a fresher perspective on conditions at The Arthur Findlay College for them. The current one appears to be 'locked in' with no movement. At least, no further updates are forthcoming.

Previously, when a tutor and SNU award holder was charged with legal proceedings against them, they were forced to stop teaching and using their awards and positions with the union, until the case was resolved. Subject to outcome, would depend on whether they would be stripped of their membership, awards and positions.

The Spiritualist grapevine is awash with news that the current president has been served with a High court summons, by a member. All this is unrelated to the tutors. It may be a rumour but if true (sources appear credible so far), High court summons are very serious and one hopes that if it is true, honour and truth are uppermost for all concerned. If a judgement goes against the president, she would surely bring the SNU into disrepute and have no option but to resign.

However, the precedent set by the Union, should apply to all and until this is resolved, the president should either resign, step back from all duties, or at least pull out of the current election this month (by which time such matters may be clearer).

It is all rather unsavoury and other comments on this thread, I can only agree with, that a reset of organised Spiritualism is essential for its survival and relevance today.

Thanks notabigjump

I will think upon this and other issues I have become aware of. First thoughts are people need to think about substance and not image.

quote: "The Spiritualist grapevine is awash with news that the current president has been served with a High Court Writ, by a member. "

Is that a writ connected to the role of president of the SNU? If not then what has it to do with the SNU?

My limited understanding is that it would relate to the behaviour of a person whilst acting in their role as president of the SNU, not as a private individual in a private matter. I hope all will become clearer in the fullness of time. I wish I had more specific details, but it is all rather murky at the moment.

notabigjump wrote:My limited understanding is that it would relate to the behaviour of a person whilst acting in their role as president of the SNU, not as a private individual in a private matter. I hope all will become clearer in the fullness of time. I wish I had more specific details, but it is all rather murky at the moment.

I see - thanks. It sounds rather serious stuff.....

notabigjump wrote:In another twist regarding the Tutor dispute, a precedent set by the SNU may hold the key to the President stepping down and formation of a new committee, with a fresher perspective on conditions at The Arthur Findlay College for them. The current one appears to be 'locked in' with no movement. At least, no further updates are forthcoming.

Previously, when a tutor and SNU award holder was charged with legal proceedings against them, they were forced to stop teaching and using their awards and positions with the union, until the case was resolved. Subject to outcome, would depend on whether they would be stripped of their membership, awards and positions.

The Spiritualist grapevine is awash with news that the current president has been served with a High court summons, by a member. All this is unrelated to the tutors. It may be a rumour but if true (sources appear credible so far), High court summons are very serious and one hopes that if it is true, honour and truth are uppermost for all concerned. If a judgement goes against the president, she would surely bring the SNU into disrepute and have no option but to resign.

However, the precedent set by the Union, should apply to all and until this is resolved, the president should either resign, step back from all duties, or at least pull out of the current election this month (by which time such matters may be clearer).

It is all rather unsavoury and other comments on this thread, I can only agree with, that a reset of organised Spiritualism is essential for its survival and relevance today.

This is fascinating notabigjump. That precedent, of standing down during a legal case, makes good sense. I also see that someone else has suggested that the forthcoming election be suspended until this matter is resolved, it could also allowed time to resolve matters more clearly with the 20 tutors.

It should be easy to find out the truth about this, the High Court Listings are in the public domain. Someone in the UK should be able to track them down.

It would be bad if the elections took place and the result of the action reflected badly on the President, thereby bringing the SNU into disrepute. Surely it is better to be safe than sorry a delay is better than harm. VP Julia Almond has been in place for many years and must be a safe pair of hands to take interim charge.

Just ploughing on may leave the SNU with a lame duck President, on what rumours suggest, could be an extended term. I am not sure if there are any provisions for the replacement or removal of a President.

The external visuals, available on social media, suggest that they will just want to carry on. It is easy to form this impression from the highly effective use of the Presidents Blog, her professionally produced and maintained Facebook Page (that media company keeps it so tight), and the tight control of the AFC Facebook page (it appears from the interplay the same PR/Media team must be at work, wonder who is paying); then the determination to keep all complaints quiet. It looks like this President may not willingly stand down, whatever the result, hanging on to the mandate given to her to continue her work.

Once again none of thsi helps the 20 Tutors, albeit it makes clear that more things have been going on than the SNU's tighly scripted words have revealed to the members. I suspect on the SNU side they are relying on their statements that the Tutors are not employees, whereas I feel that under the older contacts that may have been implicit in the nature of the contract, even if never stated, more casual employees than contractors. Still with Brian Robertson and Simon James standing in, to take over a course that Tony Stockwell was to run, it is clear the current management (Jackie Wright and Paul Jacobs) are not seeking either reconciliation, or a change of direction through mediation

I have also been made aware that other, unreported, changes have ocurred at the AFC. These are in the support area and, from what I understand, were people who the attendees loved to meet. Let me know if my news is wrong, but the departess are Will the head gardener, Dave the cleaner and Tanya the General Manager. If this information is right then something is wrong in the AFC.

As ever, other material reaches me on Spiritualismlink. Some I will not mention until matters are resolved, one way or another, when what I have may become irrelevant. Others I just put to one side.

There was one rather strange one, that caught my eye, that the intention of the this President was to incorporate Spiritualism with Scientology. Yup just totally stupid , there is and can be no relationship between the teachings of that cult and our philosophy. No way could there be any linkage.

However, it then ocurred to me that the only possible meeting place is in making a relatively large, but largely amateur organisation, into a dynamic force which is largely self governed, wealthy, and untouchable. It is not that there is any intention to make our philosophy link to scientology, but to look at the effective practices that made it succesful and adopt those. It may have been appropriate to choose the Mormon religion as an example, although that seems to be teetering a bit.

Still nothing I would be comfortable with empowering people into positions of control and tything all members, so that there is enough money to achieve aims. I raise the word Tything because the grapevine tells me that to be a member of the Inner Quest Foundation, run by Simon James and Brian Robertson you now have to tythe your income, not completely sure of this, or how it works but my news is specific enough even if anonymous. Those two tutors seem to have a good relationnship with Jackie Wright and Paul Jacobs.

In a previous post I noted the tight interaction between the Presidents Blog, the professional Facebook Page and that of the AFC. It is clear that in a PR sense the SNU has become much tighter in its message and effective at dialling down the negative images. Tight control also means that key positions get filled by people who will fall in line with that messaging; so move on from the 20 tutors to ones who meet the right parameters. I believe some of the smoke in the air suggests that may be happening, like the membership of the complaints committee. This looks like a direction taken from a new playbook, although in the SNU stacking comittees and rewarding support has been reported quite often this seems much more polished.

Is it a bridge to far to see tything suggested, it would probably drop the membership substantially, but bring in more money. A smaller membership is easier to sell a message to and if it resulted in small churches closing, they are probably property of the SNU and will help the trust fund if sold. The Facenook messaging shows that the President has created bonds with the DC;s and specifically the larget more succesful churches, who may have the membership and funds to make things happen. The SNU does have many good centres.

Potentially interesting time ahead, this election is likely to bring major change in the SNU but into what? However, if that High Court Action is happening maybe it should be delayed.

I hope that this suggestion, from an anonymous donor, turns into the red herring it deserves to be, just fluff and conjecture over the new way information is being scripted..

I knew nothing about tything until I'd been in Cardston, Alberta, Canada visiting the LDS Temple.  

I got chatting there to an information centre 'volunteer' who revealed she had been given the job through her family's connections where her parents were tythed to that church and donated a substantial percentage of their income. I had never heard of it let alone had it explained and I was quite surprised if not shocked when I researched online to see how it worked.

I'm still unsure what I feel about the practice but maybe if we feel strongly enough about our chosen persuasion, religion, movement and philosophy we ought to be prepared to support its structure and edifices more generously?

Admin wrote:
In a previous post I noted the tight interaction between the Presidents Blog, the professional Facebook Page and that of the AFC. It is clear that in a PR sense the SNU has become much tighter in its message and effective at dialling down the negative images. Tight control also means that key positions get filled by people who will fall in line with that messaging; so move on from the 20 tutors to ones who meet the right parameters. I believe some of the smoke in the air suggests that may be happening, like the membership of the complaints committee. This looks like a direction taken from a new playbook, although in the SNU stacking comittees and rewarding support has been reported quite often this seems much more polished

I believe there is a PR and Publicity professional on the payroll now. I seem to remember reading one of the blogs about his appointment. One would expect that if an election is being held soon, all candidates would have equal promotional exposure, if this is a paid position that is financially sustained by members and AFC revenue in any form whatsoever. If so, someone should be informing the charities commission and companies house immediately, of the lack of parity. The SNU and Spiritualism appear further apart than at any time I can remember in my rather aged lifetime.

Admin wrote:I have also been made aware that other, unreported, changes have ocurred at the AFC. These are in the support area and, from what I understand, were people who the attendees loved to meet. Let me know if my news is wrong, but the departess are Will the head gardener, Dave the cleaner and Tanya the General Manager. If this information is right then something is wrong in the AFC.

You are correct. There is much that is very wrong and the bequest of Arthur Findlay is certainly not being honoured.

mac wrote:I knew nothing about tything until I'd been in Cardston, Alberta, Canada visiting the LDS Temple.  

I got chatting there to an information centre 'volunteer' who revealed she had been given the job through her family's connections where her parents were tythed to that church and donated a substantial percentage of their income. I had never heard of it let alone had it explained and I was quite surprised if not shocked when I researched online to see how it worked.

I'm still unsure what I feel about the practice but maybe if we feel strongly enough about our chosen persuasion, religion, movement and philosophy we ought to be prepared to support its structure and edifices more generously?

It's an interesting and long standing method in several churches, yet I cannot envisage spiritualists accepting this. When so many simply drop a £1 coin (or one of another currency)in the collection plate at a service, there is little hope of significant commitment.

Looking at the financial returns at companies house, the significant contribution to the union appears to be from the college and educational activities such as awards and training courses. Methinks they would be wise to do their utmost to bring their 20 tutors back, without haste.

Admin wrote:
Potentially interesting time ahead, this election is likely to bring major change in the SNU but into what? However, if that High Court Action is happening maybe it should be delayed.

I hope that this suggestion, from an anonymous donor, turns into the red herring it deserves to be, just fluff and conjecture over the new way information is being scripted..

so do I but for truth and transparency, if this is either true or conjecture, then the current president must make it clear if there is an ongoing legal action. The High Court will publish their cases publicly soon if this is so. If members have not been given the truth before casting their votes, then ignominy is almost guaranteed.

[quote="notabigjump"]

mac wrote:I knew nothing about tything until I'd been in Cardston, Alberta, Canada visiting the LDS Temple.  

I got chatting there to an information centre 'volunteer' who revealed she had been given the job through her family's connections where her parents were tythed to that church and donated a substantial percentage of their income. I had never heard of it let alone had it explained and I was quite surprised if not shocked when I researched online to see how it worked.

I'm still unsure what I feel about the practice but maybe if we feel strongly enough about our chosen persuasion, religion, movement and philosophy we ought to be prepared to support its structure and edifices more generously?

It's an interesting and long standing method in several churches, yet I cannot envisage spiritualists accepting this. When so many simply drop a £1 coin (or one of another currency)in the collection plate at a service, there is little hope of significant commitment.

There will likely be some individuals in any congregation who can't afford more than a quid or two but I think for the rest £10 is reasonable. You are likely to get good company, an evening's entertainment, spiritual uplift, the chance of a spirit message and the near-guarantee of a cuppa and a biscuit. All for ten quid!

Looking at the financial returns at companies house, the significant contribution to the union appears to be from the college and educational activities such as awards and training courses. Methinks they would be wise to do their utmost to bring their 20 tutors back, without haste.

One would expect that those who SHOULD know either don't know, don't care or have some other reason for not trying to re-establish a sound working relationship involving everyone relevant.

Mac, tything is part of History, the Parish was allowed to Tythe on the basis of the valuations creted for the Kings Taxation. The tythe was also meant to help the poor of the parish, provide the living for the vicar the balance into the Bishops coffers. They only helped the parishoners, its one of the reasons for the hiring fairs that existed because, after they worked one season, for a farmer there would be an attempt to move them on, before they became a burden to the parish. Of course it all depended on teh Parish wheth the alms given kept people alive.

As such there is no logical reason for the tythe, Anglican Churces here still try and collect it but they do provide outreach care even fot non parishioners. In Scientology, Mormonism and even the Pentacostal Churches there are no such life help programs so the whole historical point of it is gone. There is no real justification for it and my bet is membership would collapse (and finding volunteers to run Centres, who, I guess, have to be SNU members

Try tything in Aus, where everything is volunteer run, and there is no central organisation we would not have a centre no one would do it. We have to rely on donations which now are not a coin but average a $5 note. Even the chairman and demonstrators donate rather than receive expenses.

Running on the smell of an oily rag does not give you much to work with for promotions and bringing visitors in requires careful planning.

notabigjump wrote:

Admin wrote:
In a previous post I noted the tight interaction between the Presidents Blog, the professional Facebook Page and that of the AFC. It is clear that in a PR sense the SNU has become much tighter in its message and effective at dialling down the negative images. Tight control also means that key positions get filled by people who will fall in line with that messaging; so move on from the 20 tutors to ones who meet the right parameters. I believe some of the smoke in the air suggests that may be happening, like the membership of the complaints committee. This looks like a direction taken from a new playbook, although in the SNU stacking comittees and rewarding support has been reported quite often this seems much more polished

I believe there is a PR and Publicity professional on the payroll now. I seem to remember reading one of the blogs about his appointment. One would expect that if an election is being held soon, all candidates would have equal promotional exposure, if this is a paid position that is financially sustained by members and AFC revenue in any form whatsoever. If so, someone should be informing the charities commission and companies house immediately, of the lack of parity. The SNU and Spiritualism appear further apart than at any time I can remember in my rather aged lifetime.

Absolutely everyone should have this available equally if it is from the SNU's funds and surely the whole point is not to make the President look great (indeed using this to run the Presidents Facebook Page must be a misuse) but to promote Spiritualism to those who do not know there is a Philosophy like ours.

Facebook special interest pages can be a great pace to meet up and keep in touch with those of a like mind ONCE YOU KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE PAGE. But unless you know survival and Spiritualism actually exist and what they mean I'm not sure how you would find such a page......

Admin wrote:Mac, tything is part of History, the Parish was allowed to Tythe on the basis of the valuations creted for the Kings Taxation. The tythe was also meant to help the poor of the parish, provide the living for the vicar the balance into the Bishops coffers. They only helped the parishoners, its one of the reasons for the hiring fairs that existed because, after they worked one season, for a farmer there would be an attempt to move them on, before they became a burden to the parish. Of course it all depended on teh Parish wheth the alms given kept people alive.

As such there is no logical reason for the tythe, Anglican Churces here still try and collect it but they do provide outreach care even fot non parishioners. In Scientology, Mormonism and even the Pentacostal Churches there are no such life help programs so the whole historical point of it is gone. There is no real justification for it and my bet is membership would collapse (and finding volunteers to run Centres, who, I guess, have to be SNU members

Try tything in Aus, where everything is volunteer run, and there is no central organisation we would not have a centre no one would do it. We have to rely on donations which now are not a coin but average a $5 note. Even the chairman and demonstrators donate rather than receive expenses.

Running on the smell of an oily rag does not give you much to work with for promotions and bringing visitors in requires careful planning.

I researched tything at that time (around 2010) and found it used to be 10% of income!! I have no idea if any organisations use such a practice nowadays but I wouldn't expect many folk would be prepared to accept it. As you know better than I, volunteering is wholly dependent on individuals being prepared to give their services freely and they need to be motivated to do that.

How does the old saying go? "One volunteer is worth ten pressed men."

Mac to the Mormons & Scientologists, Tything is Tything 10% including 10% of the value of presents you receive. Some churches create the opportunity for people who Tythe to be prioritised on the church committee (you may not be surprised to know several real estate agents do this in the Anglican church of a local, extremely wealthy, $2mill plus houses area. At least in most of the conventional Christian Churches Tything is not required but their vital social service programs are under threat. We cannot run these things so at least once a year, near Christmas we collect food, toys and money and give it to the Uniting Church.

I cannot see how it fits in with any idea of Spiritualism, I really see that the individual churches in the SNU, having passed their properties over to the trust, really get anything of value back from the NEC.