Re: Scott Milligan!?

by obiwan Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:25 am

It seems easy to resolve to me. Allow some reputable agency to investigate properly like physical mediums did in the past.

Although it’s very easy to insinuate fraud from outside a seance, the descriptions of demonstrations of physical mediumship I read these days don’t seem to resemble those reported in the past eg Alec Harris, Leslie Flint etc. if mediums resist proper investigation they should expect a sceptical or cynical response IMHO. No amount of finger pointing by mediums, or blaming others will carry an ounce of weight as far as I can see.

Prove them wrong by providing proper evidence. Simples. Isn’t it?

Ps I have zero sympathy for Gary Mannion. Exposing fraud doesn’t require permission IMO. He is perfectly welcome to rebut it (I’d love to see the response to the videos. Let me guess “it was someone else’s fault”.

by Jbodoski Sat Sep 28, 2024 1:52 pm

bulldog wrote:Speak to Libby about this and devita they know what happened at the AFC seance and said nothing

I must disagree, both tutors reported the matter. The items were removed post haste by the manager at the time, a suppoter of the medium. In a recent video he said it was the stuffing from a cushion, then why was there 2 pieces, and when it was reported to the manager, who allegedly gave him the cushion cover, why did she not tell people at the time it was from a cushion. It must have been a very thin cushion.

by Lis Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:31 pm

Jbodoski wrote:
bulldog wrote:Speak to Libby about this and devita they know what happened at the AFC seance and said nothing

I must disagree, both tutors reported the matter. The items were removed post haste by the manager at the time, a suppoter of the medium. In a recent video he said it was the stuffing from a cushion, then why was there 2 pieces, and when it was reported to the manager, who allegedly gave him the cushion cover, why did she not tell people at the time it was from a cushion. It must have been a very thin cushion.

Indeed, Jbodoski, a very thin cushion. One hardly fit for any purpose either as a seat cushion or one to support someone's posterior.

I have other concerns that come to mind about this wadding/cushion subject.

The first is that cushion stuffing (the wadding) is normally encased in a thin fibre bag which has all seams sewn so that the stuffing/wadding will remain in the required cushion shape, be that square, rectangular or circular. This has been the standard method of containing cushion stuffing/wadding for many decades.

For that reason, cushion wadding/stuffing would not normally have threads from the cushion attached to its surface. Normally, there wouldn't be any loose threads from the cushion on the inside of the cushion cover. But even if there were loose threads, normally those threads would become attached to the wadding cover not to the wadding within the cushion's wadding covering.

I say this, having made more than a few cushion covers and cushions with wadding inside in my time. Wink

Secondly, cushion stuffing (the wadding) is normally a single piece and is never folded over when inserted into a cushion cover. There is an obvious reason why this is the case. A piece of wadding that is folded over will soon, when the cushion is used, begin to become lumpy and uneven in shape, soon making the cushion useless.

The wadding (stuffing) photographed by some attendees after the seance appears to show several unusual features:

1. It appears to be a piece of wadding that is folded over itself, and very thin. Too thin, it would appear to be a cushion to be placed behind a persons' back, or, indeed, to be used as a seat cushion.
2. There appears to be two pieces of wadding. There would not normally be two separate, and most unequal in size pieces of wadding inside a cushion. Nor would a piece of wadding normally come apart leaving one large piece and another separate long thin piece.
3. It would appear that were the larger piece of wadding unfolded it would need to have a very large cushion cover.

There is, as jbodoski has mentioned, another relevant issue.

Why did the manager hastily "remove" the wadding, rather than merely return the wadding to the cushion cover from which it allegedly came, and when doing so, explain to all present that they had/Mr. Milligan had removed the said wadding from the cushion with the manager's agreement/assistance prior to the seance, so that it might be used as a cover for the apparatus Mr. Milligan had brought to the event?

Simply telling everyone the wadding was from an AFC cushion, and showing them the cushion cover that had been used to contain the apparatus would have immediately informed and reassured the people present that there was nothing to be concerned about.

I must also also ask, if several people reported their concerns about the presence of this wadding after the seance, did the manager in question then provide this explanation to those to whom the matter had been reported?

Was the "offending cushion cover" and wadding offered as evidence?

by Admin Sun Sep 29, 2024 1:56 am

Jbodoski wrote:
bulldog wrote:Speak to Libby about this and devita they know what happened at the AFC seance and said nothing

I must disagree, both tutors reported the matter. The items were removed post haste by the manager at the time, a supporter of the medium. In a recent video he said it was the stuffing from a cushion, then why was there 2 pieces, and when it was reported to the manager, who allegedly gave him the cushion cover, why did she not tell people at the time it was from a cushion. It must have been a very thin cushion.

Thanks very much for that information Jbodoski. I am not sure whether you know more about this I had heard that the photo of the wadding was not taken where the items were first found and I am unsure who the first finders were?

It does clear up that the matter was reported and the NEC aware. It also makes more sense of what happened next. In Scott's video he says this was the last seance before he went back again and got called into the meeting where it was suggested he went away and thought about more light or photography should be allowed in.

Scott was clearly not happy so went to Psychic News, Now in fact we find that the editor Scott talked to was Sue Farrow then PN editor, and a major adherent of Physical Mediumship and she wrote an article about the AFC's protocols for Physical Mediumship (here https://www.psychicnews.org.uk/articles/The-death-of-physical-mediumship-as-we-know-it issue 4123 January 2015 and here https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2242-the-death-of-physical-mediumship-pn )

These dates do all coincide with Scott's video. It indicates that the finding of the material, as reported to the NEC, seems to have created a change in their protocols. Much easier to do this quietly and behind the scenes, with no need to make public any reason for that change. The use of Physical Mediums at the College, was, as ever with this type of mediumship, controversial and it would have been embarrassing, to both parties, to reveal why they changed direction if this is what happened.

Better to be supportive and offer the medium who they had been working with the opportunity of support while he adapted his mediumship, to accept the use of Thermography. We know that Scott, as he said in his video decided, upon reflection, to refuse working with Thermography. In honesty this was a wise move by the SNU which may have stopped any argument about what happened at the seance.

Clearly Sue's rather over the top headline was subsequently overwhelmed by Roy Stemman returning to PN as her replacement and launching his Truth In Physical Mediumship Campaign https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2380-psychic-news-truth-campaign-to-end-fraud-in-physical-mediums . This with the support of Banyan Retreat and The SNU. In the months following the launch PN would follow up indicating that other organisations were backing this campaign.

This was partly in reaction to the release of the video by Banyan Retreat (the centre Scott spent most of his time at) of Garry Mannion apparently caught out and about during the seance, partly to link with the new AFC protocols (as above) and because of other incidents including a fairly explosive event in Queensland with another medium (oh! and the problems around many more).

by Jbodoski Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:08 am

[quote="Admin"]

Jbodoski wrote:
bulldog wrote:Speak to Libby about this and devita they know what happened at the AFC seance and said nothing

I must disagree, both tutors reported the matter. The items were removed post haste by the manager at the time, a supporter of the medium. In a recent video he said it was the stuffing from a cushion, then why was there 2 pieces, and when it was reported to the manager, who allegedly gave him the cushion cover, why did she not tell people at the time it was from a cushion. It must have been a very thin cushion.

Thanks very much for that information Jbodoski. I am not sure whether you know more about this I had heard that the photo of the wadding was not taken where the items were first found and I am unsure who the first finders were?

It does clear up that the matter was reported and the NEC aware. It also makes more sense of what happened next. In Scott's video he says this was the last seance before he went back again and got called into the meeting where it was suggested he went away and thought about more light or photography should be allowed in.

Scott was clearly not happy so went to Psychic News, Now in fact we find that the editor Scott talked to was Sue Farrow then PN editor, and a major adherent of Physical Mediumship and she wrote an article about the AFC's protocols for Physical Mediumship (here https://www.psychicnews.org.uk/articles/The-death-of-physical-mediumship-as-we-know-it issue 4123 January 2015 and here https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2242-the-death-of-physical-mediumship-pn )

These dates do all coincide with Scott's video. It indicates that the finding of the material, as reported to the NEC, seems to have created a change in their protocols. Much easier to do this quietly and behind the scenes, with no need to make public any reason for that change. The use of Physical Mediums at the College, was, as ever with this type of mediumship, controversial and it would have been embarrassing, to both parties, to reveal why they changed direction if this is what happened.

Better to be supportive and offer the medium who they had been working with the opportunity of support while he adapted his mediumship, to accept the use of Thermography. We know that Scott, as he said in his video decided, upon reflection, to refuse working with Thermography. In honesty this was a wise move by the SNU which may have stopped any argument about what happened at the seance.

Clearly Sue's rather over the top headline was subsequently overwhelmed by Roy Stemman returning to PN as her replacement and launching his Truth In Physical Mediumship Campaign https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2380-psychic-news-truth-campaign-to-end-fraud-in-physical-mediums . This with the support of Banyan Retreat and The SNU. In the months following the launch PN would follow up indicating that other organisations were backing this campaign.

This was partly in reaction to the release of the video by Banyan Retreat (the centre Scott spent most of his time at) of Garry Mannion apparently caught out and about during the seance, partly to link with the new AFC protocols (as above) and because of other incidents including a fairly explosive event in Queensland with another medium (oh! and the problems around many more).[/quotei
It was photographed were it was found.

by Slatewriter Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:41 am

Admin wrote: and because of other incidents including a fairly explosive event in Queensland with another medium (oh! and the problems around many more).

Can Admin remind us, what was the 'fairly explosive event' in Queensland?
And who was it centered around?

by Admin Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:06 am

I just hope that if courses in training for Physical Mediumship start they use the AFC protocols and the Thermographic Camera. I suppose they may retract from that protocol, given Scott's expressed wish not to use those cameras.

It seems that once mediums start seances in the dark it is impossible to get them either to move onto using Thermography, or working in the light.

by Admin Mon Sep 30, 2024 7:07 am

Slatewriter wrote:
Admin wrote: and because of other incidents including a fairly explosive event in Queensland with another medium (oh! and the problems around many more).

Can Admin remind us, what was the 'fairly explosive event' in Queensland?
And who was it centered around?

Much of it is mentioned in this thread, it involved a medium who is well known and Deb who ran seances with them in Queensland. She was quoted in Psychic News, also ran The Australian Academy of Spirit, I believe the phenomenalists gave her a rough time https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2380p25-psychic-news-truth-campaign-to-end-fraud-in-physical-mediums She was replied to in another thread https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2382-letter-to-psychic-news . Of course we were used to this, but this exchange resulted in some other bizarre threads https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2385p25-pn-campaign-to-end-fraud-in-pm-david-thompson-comments or https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2384-locked-posts . However it also created a fascinating reply from the original (and for several years) leader of the COSC circle https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2121-mediocrity-in-physical-mediumship-an-inside-view

I am not sure I really wanted to be reminded of that time its a long time since that name passed through the forum although I see he may be leaving his day job now and going back on the circuit. Good friend of Scott's (or was)

by mac Mon Sep 30, 2024 4:48 pm

Admin wrote:I just hope that if courses in training for Physical Mediumship start they use the AFC protocols and the Thermographic Camera. I suppose they may retract from that protocol, given Scott's expressed wish not to use those cameras.

It seems that once mediums start seances in the dark it is impossible to get them either to move onto using Thermography, or working in the light.

I'll play Devil's Advocate here. I have no axe to grind, I'm not a medium and I don't take any notice of reports of physical mediumship in the dark. BUT if Scott Milligan is concerned for his safety working other than in the dark then I respect his concerns and the answer is easy - don't do it and don't go anywhere where's there's a protocol expecting you to work in any way you can't accept.

Perhaps it's time for the SNU to declare it will be rigourously implementing protocols requiring monitoring and recording of proceedings? And also that nobody will be allowed to side-step on its premises any such protocols to demonstrate or train others,

Or is that a "duh" statement and protocols should already be being respected?

by Janhar Tue Oct 01, 2024 12:03 pm

I am not qualified to join in a discussion on PM but I hope you will allow a one off diversion about old cushions. I remember putting new cushions in a relative's old brocade type covers and they had loose threads on the inside. Also, I have used materials to pad out sides of cushion cases where the actual cushion inside is a bit small for the cover. Very unprofessional of course, and yes a bit lumpy but I am sure often done. Any loose thread could easily attach.
As for the material used in the photo .... I would find that perfect for padding out. I think it might once have been widely used in Stansted Hall .... Something similar was discovered under a seat cushion in Gordon Higginson's seance room, leading to accusations of fraud..
I think the reason it got whisked away after being discovered might have been because of Gordon's experience. A mistake to do that, I agree.

by mac Tue Oct 01, 2024 12:36 pm

I felt similarly about the cushion's padding. I've often re-done our own so they ended up with two distinct pieces of polyester wadding inside.

However, what struck me when watching the video for the second time today was why a luminous (illuminous said Scott) piece of whatever would be taken into a room that was to be blacked out. And in order that it could be taken in a suitable cover had to be found (a cushion cover) presumably to block out any light it may have given off. Why take it in in the first place, one might ask?

Did I miss the explanation or am I just thick?

by Janhar Tue Oct 01, 2024 4:02 pm

mac wrote:I felt similarly about the cushion's padding. I've often re-done our own so they ended up with two distinct pieces of polyester wadding inside.

However, what struck me when watching the video for the second time today was why a luminous (illuminous said Scott) piece of whatever would be taken into a room that was to be blacked out. And in order that it could be taken in a suitable cover had to be found (a cushion cover) presumably to block out any light it may have given off. Why take it in in the first place, one might ask?

Did I miss the explanation or am I just thick?

I was at that seance, I am fairly sure, (unless it was one just before or after), but David Bruton was in the bar with us afterwards discussing it. It was the only proper seance I ever attended and the only time I ever saw Scott. I think it was the one in question because David was concerned by the reaction and saying that we needed some kind of light or special camera to avoid this. I am not sure if David was in the actual seance but he was there. The reason for the complaints were as follows: It was an experimental week, so there were people of sceptical thinking plus a few actual scientists who were after proof. Not your usual crowd where nearly all are Spiritualists who are already convinced. It was the general public in a more real sense than is normal at the Hall .
The library was packed and the back of the room was in rows so only 3 sides were in a tidy one row circle and the 4th side was a hotch potch of crammed in chairs. People were complaining afterwards that they could not see the lights or feel anything because of their seat position at the back and behind others. This meant they experienced nothing in the pitch black apart from a short glimpse on a couple of occasions when Scott’s partner put the red light on for us to observe the objects scattered all around, not as they were when we began. I do not remember this particular item in the cushion cover but my brain would not have registered it anyway as there were several items placed and I was just all agog at a new experience. All I remember in detail is the trumpets and a drum but there was much more.
I had a good seat position and felt water sprayed on my feet which would be easy for an imposter to do in the dark but I also felt a small unmistakable tug on the bottom of my trousers. My actual leg or foot was not touched, I do not recall the feeling of a touch, just the tug on my trouser material, so this would be a clever feat for an imposter in pitch black even if they were crawling around in night vision specs. There was a lot of noise from a drum and a trumpet or something darting around with lights on. There was speaking I think but cannot remember what. The blackness frustrated me and it stopped anything being evidential but it seemed genuine. Scott was all tangled up when the lights came on at the end. They seemed to have got his shirt partly off and tied it onto something. He was only half awake, just coming round trying to move his arm which was all tangled up in his distorted clothing but the straps were still in place. It was comical to see. Then they took us out. We were all holding hands throughout. I thought it was all genuine and I still do, but there was no proof of anything because it was pitch black. I knew nothing about this cushion stuffing business until I saw it on here. I had stopped being a regular college student then. I went to that week because it was experimental and I would not be made to work too hard. It was very interesting and a change. There was lots of talk afterwards about it not being Scott at his best and concern about him overdoing things with too many demonstrations. It was never intended to produce visible ectoplasm that night. It was too crowded and the sitters were not vetted. Anyone was allowed in that was in the college that night. It was only a demonstration for those on an experimental week. It was not, and was not billed to be, more than that.

by mac Tue Oct 01, 2024 7:13 pm

Thank you for giving your time to explain what you experienced. You've given us some very detailed and interesting observations about the whole evening - great job.

It's very illuminating to learn how you felt about your time there. It puts me in mind of the public, fund-raising demonstration I attended in Scole. The Experimental Group (so called) was sitting regularly for phenomena in the darkness of the cellar at that time.

The phenomena you and I both experienced WERE NOT physical mediumship. Nowadays I refer to such demos. as 'phenomenalism' if no evidence of survival is forthcoming. Interesting enough in themselves but potentially misleading if they're referred to as mediumship or folk believe them to be, although I'm very much aware that in the USA such phenomenalism is actually often referred to as 'psychic mediumship'.

It does still leave me wondering, though, why a medium would give a demonstration - even one described as 'experimental' - and take a luminous plaque into a dark session needing him then to take steps to prevent light coming from it. It still appears he's unprepared to use light in his sessions and presumably that was the case at the time 10 years ago.

Is it just me?

by Janhar Tue Oct 01, 2024 9:23 pm

mac wrote:Thank you for giving your time to explain what you experienced. You've given us some very detailed and interesting observations about the whole evening - great job.

It's very illuminating to learn how you felt about your time there. It puts me in mind of the public, fund-raising demonstration I attended in Scole. The Experimental Group (so called) was sitting regularly for phenomena in the darkness of the cellar at that time.

The phenomena you and I both experienced WERE NOT physical mediumship. Nowadays I refer to such demos. as 'phenomenalism' if no evidence of survival is forthcoming. Interesting enough in themselves but potentially misleading if they're referred to as mediumship or folk believe them to be, although I'm very much aware that in the USA such phenomenalism is actually often referred to as 'psychic mediumship'.

It does still leave me wondering, though, why a medium would give a demonstration - even one described as 'experimental' - and take a luminous plaque into a dark session needing him then to take steps to prevent light coming from it. It still appears he's unprepared to use light in his sessions and presumably that was the case at the time 10 years ago.

Is it just me?

That luminous thing is probably used for something that one of his regular sitters might tell you if you ever meet one. He might have told us on the night but I forgot most of it anyway, … so long ago. . I think he did say in the recent video that he usually puts a blanket over it.
Don’t forget it is just luminous, not a real light. Bigger than the bits of luminous tape on a trumpet which is why he covers it perhaps but if Spirit choose to use it he trusts them that it’s ok at whatever level of trance he’s at in that moment. Not something he fears like something with proper light or an electrical or digital component. That’s just my guess though. He might come on and explain it. He also said in the video that physical phenomena was not physical mediumship. There may have been a trance communication as well but forget. The trouble is it all blurs in my mind with other occasions I have watched cabinet work over many years. Not proper seances but often used on trance courses. However, this was given as a seance demonstration with full protocols for educational purposes with the expectation of some phenomena and we got it.

by Lis Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:52 pm

Janhar wrote:
this was given as a seance demonstration with full protocols for educational purposes with the expectation of some phenomena and we got it.

But what was alleged to be the source of the phenomena that you got?

Objects moving about on the floor in the darkened room? Pulling trouser legs? Raised trumpets moving about for no particular purpose? The "medium" apparently tangled up in his clothing though still cable tied?

I ask because the difficulty I find with this is when such activities are ascribed to spirit, it is done so when there is actually no evidence that what has occurred was in fact done by spirit.

Nor is there any evidence of survival in such phenomena demonstrations, unless in addition to the movement of the objects and the tugging on trousers, there are words from a person in spirit who is identified and recognised.

I am not knocking there being such physical phenomena demonstrations, just cautioning that they are not inappropriately described as being demonstration that actually demonstrates spirit or spirit survival.

One question comes to mind - why on earth would a spirit person want to crawl around on the floor of the darkened seance room to pull at someone's trouser leg? And, in what way would this action prove spirit was responsible for the act?

Janhar has quite rightly simply described what they experienced and did not attribute the apparent phenomena to spirit activity, however, all too often people to so.

by mac Wed Oct 02, 2024 7:02 am

Janhar wrote:
That luminous thing is probably used for something that one of his regular sitters might tell you if you ever meet one. He might have told us on the night but I forgot most of it anyway, … so long ago. . I think he did say in the recent video that he usually puts a blanket over it.
Don’t forget it is just luminous, not a real light. Bigger than the bits of luminous tape on a trumpet which is why he covers it perhaps but if Spirit choose to use it he trusts them that it’s ok at whatever level of trance he’s at in that moment. Not something he fears like something with proper light or an electrical or digital component.

Agreed.

That’s just my guess though. He might come on and explain it.

It would be great for him to come and tell us exactly what the idea was but I won't be holding my breath until it happens! lol

He also said in the video that physical phenomena was not physical mediumship.

Yes he was very clear about that.

There may have been a trance communication as well but forget. The trouble is it all blurs in my mind with other occasions I have watched cabinet work over many years. Not proper seances but often used on trance courses. However, this was given as a seance demonstration with full protocols for educational purposes with the expectation of some phenomena and we got it.

thank you

by Janhar Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:17 am

Lis wrote:
Janhar wrote:
this was given as a seance demonstration with full protocols for educational purposes with the expectation of some phenomena and we got it.

But what was alleged to be the source of the phenomena that you got?

Objects moving about on the floor in the darkened room? Pulling trouser legs? Raised trumpets moving about for no particular purpose? The "medium" apparently tangled up in his clothing though still cable tied?

I ask because the difficulty I find with this is when such activities are ascribed to spirit, it is done so when there is actually no evidence that what has occurred was in fact done by spirit.

Nor is there any evidence of survival in such phenomena demonstrations, unless in addition to the movement of the objects and the tugging on trousers, there are words from a person in spirit who is identified and recognised.

I am not knocking there being such physical phenomena demonstrations, just cautioning that they are not inappropriately described as being demonstration that actually demonstrates spirit or spirit survival.

One question comes to mind - why on earth would a spirit person want to crawl around on the floor of the darkened seance room to pull at someone's trouser leg? And, in what way would this action prove spirit was responsible for the act?

Janhar has quite rightly simply described what they experienced and did not attribute the apparent phenomena to spirit activity, however, all too often people to so.

There was no evidence of spirit and actually no evidence of phenomena (due to the black out) though I firmly believe it took place because I do not believe anyone was cheating in there. I understand about telekinesis but I do not think that was happening here either. I am of the belief that spirit do bring about physical phenomena of this kind but I agree with you it is not evidential for survival and is not mediumship. It does though, have a purpose in proving that physical matter can be transcended therefore helping some people who need to see that before they can begin to accept the possibility of more. Physical mediumship, however is the goal and development of phenomena can lead to this. I’m afraid that is my sum total of knowledge in physical phenomena and/or physical mediumship so I cannot offer more than my opinion. You are correct though in saying that people do need to understand the difference. I smiled at what you said about spirit not being likely to crawl around the floor. That is very true, though of course we know they can gently touch our heads or even tweak an odd trouser leg if they wish by using other means.

by Admin Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:20 am

[quote="Janhar"][quote="Lis"]

Janhar wrote:

There was no evidence of spirit and actually no evidence of phenomena (due to the black out) though I firmly believe it took place because I do not believe anyone was cheating in there. I understand about telekinesis but I do not think that was happening here either. I am of the belief that spirit do bring about physical phenomena of this kind but I agree with you it is not evidential for survival and is not mediumship. .

Sadly Janhar I doubt that any of this or indeed most dark seances have very much to do with Spirit and in the dark it is impossible to prove it. If you look at the area on Physical Mediumship in teh forum you may understand my disinclination even more.

by Janhar Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:58 am

Admin wrote:
Janhar wrote:
Lis wrote:
Janhar wrote:

There was no evidence of spirit and actually no evidence of phenomena (due to the black out) though I firmly believe it took place because I do not believe anyone was cheating in there. I understand about telekinesis but I do not think that was happening here either. I am of the belief that spirit do bring about physical phenomena of this kind but I agree with you it is not evidential for survival and is not mediumship. .

Sadly Janhar I doubt that any of this or indeed most dark seances have very much to do with Spirit and in the dark it is impossible to prove it. If you look at the area on Physical Mediumship in teh forum you may understand my disinclination even more.

So if it is nothing much to do with spirit, what would you suggest is making the activity happen? I would be very interested to understand your view on this. Are most of them cheating? or is there another energy, which you do not define as spirit responsible for it?…and if most of them are cheating, even the ones who give great evidence on platform might be a cheat in the seance. This makes truth of something said to me years ago and which I often repeat. “You do not have to be a nice person to be a medium. Spirit will use who they can to get their message to you. Never assume a medium is someone to look up to”
I never have. I have loved and respected some great mediums but never just for their mediumship.
I would never go in a dark circle again. Too frustrating. Did it dark once before just for direct voice and it sounded fake. I was more interested in why there was a spot of light on the ceiling. Most of us were. It was decided it was floodlight from outside. Cannot remember name of medium. I think he was trained by Leslie Flint but not certain. No more of any of that for me. In light or dark it does not appeal to be honest..I distrust trance also, but with that I can at least feel the shift if Spirit is truly engaging with the medium. Even so, even with a strong spirit influence, I believe it is usually the medium speaking in various voices which are unnecessary.
I am not very trusting, which may surprise you after previous comments.
Have enjoyed walking an odd table though. I like that.

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:21 am

Janhar wrote:
Admin wrote:
Janhar wrote:
Lis wrote:
Janhar wrote:

There was no evidence of spirit and actually no evidence of phenomena (due to the black out) though I firmly believe it took place because I do not believe anyone was cheating in there. I understand about telekinesis but I do not think that was happening here either. I am of the belief that spirit do bring about physical phenomena of this kind but I agree with you it is not evidential for survival and is not mediumship. .

Sadly Janhar I doubt that any of this or indeed most dark seances have very much to do with Spirit and in the dark it is impossible to prove it. If you look at the area on Physical Mediumship in teh forum you may understand my disinclination even more.
So if it is nothing much to do with spirit, what would you suggest is making the activity happen? I would be very interested to understand your view on this. Are most of them cheating? or is there another energy, which you do not define as spirit responsible for it?…and if most of them are cheating, even the ones who give great evidence on platform might be a cheat in the seance. This makes truth of something said to me years ago and which I often repeat. “You do not have to be a nice person to be a medium. Spirit will use who they can to get their message to you. Never assume a medium is someone to look up to”
I never have. I have loved and respected some great mediums but never just for their mediumship.
I would never go in a dark circle again. Too frustrating. Did it dark once before just for direct voice and it sounded fake. I was more interested in why there was a spot of light on the ceiling. Most of us were. It was decided it was floodlight from outside. Cannot remember name of medium. I think he was trained by Leslie Flint but not certain. No more of any of that for me. In light or dark it does not appeal to be honest..I distrust trance also, but with that I can at least feel the shift if Spirit is truly engaging with the medium. Even so, even with a strong spirit influence, I believe it is usually the medium speaking in various voices which are unnecessary.
I am not very trusting, which may surprise you after previous comments.

great responses!

by Janhar Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:36 am

Mac, I added at the end of it that I do enjoy walking an odd table

but I need a stronger medium than me on it too. Seen some very lively tables at Stansted.

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:55 am

Janhar wrote:Mac, I added at the end of it that I do enjoy walking an odd table but I need a stronger medium than me on it too. Seen some very lively tables at Stansted.

Yeah I can see how that's a bit of harmless fun when it is done just for fun and entertainment.

But many years ago I had the temerity to write in PN that I was left wondering if (some) sitters in a physical mediumship development group scenario were more intrigued by experiencing phenomena than they were interested in what mediumship is really about. At least what I see mediumship being about no matter what its flavour.

George Cranley took me to task for that but I still stand by what I said in my novice years.

by Janhar Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:36 am

mac wrote:
Janhar wrote:Mac, I added at the end of it that I do enjoy walking an odd table but I need a stronger medium than me on it too. Seen some very lively tables at Stansted.
Yeah I can see how that's a bit of harmless fun when it is done just for fun and entertainment.

But many years ago I had the temerity to write in PN that I was left wondering if (some) sitters in a physical mediumship development group scenario were more intrigued by experiencing phenomena than they were interested in what mediumship is really about. At least what I see mediumship being about no matter what its flavour.

George Cranley took me to task for that but I still stand by what I said in my novice years.

I think there are people who just have to be physical mediums and they are meant to be, and I think there are only a few like that. Generally though,I think people who focus on phenomena don’t trust the communications they receive in dems or sittings and need extra proof. They can believe a physical event but don’t trust mental mediumship, especially if it is not good mental mediumship. They believe, as I do, that Spirit do bring the phenomena, when it’s a genuine seance, and this is a more tangible proof of a spirit world to them. For me its the opposite. Nothing beats the message for me. It’s either right or wrong and sometimes when it’s wrong I can see the medium has it but just delivered it wrong. So for me that is the only way to go, (though my Aunty could be astonishing on a home made ouija board but let’s not go there Razz

)

by mac Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:47 am

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:
Janhar wrote:Mac, I added at the end of it that I do enjoy walking an odd table but I need a stronger medium than me on it too. Seen some very lively tables at Stansted.
Yeah I can see how that's a bit of harmless fun when it is done just for fun and entertainment.

But many years ago I had the temerity to write in PN that I was left wondering if (some) sitters in a physical mediumship development group scenario were more intrigued by experiencing phenomena than they were interested in what mediumship is really about. At least what I see mediumship being about no matter what its flavour.

George Cranley took me to task for that but I still stand by what I said in my novice years.

I think there are people who just have to be physical mediums and they are meant to be, and I think there are only a few like that.

Agreed

Generally though,I think people who focus on phenomena don’t trust the communications they receive in dems or sittings and need extra proof. They can believe a physical event but don’t trust mental mediumship, especially if it is not good mental mediumship. They believe, as I do, that Spirit do bring the phenomena, when it’s a genuine seance, and this is a more tangible proof of a spirit world to them.

fair comment

For me its the opposite. Nothing beats the message for me. It’s either right or wrong and sometimes when it’s wrong I can see the medium has it but just delivered it wrong. So for me that is the only way to go, (though my Aunty could be astonishing on a home made ouija board but let’s not go there

We think similarly. I don't care one jot which flavour of mediumship is used provided the communication is clearly evidential. If it's vague and uncertain it doesn't matter to me which form of mediumship delivered it. It wouldn't change my view if it's not plainly evidential. As for using an ouija board, my take is that results are determined by the quality of the intermediary's attributes.

by Janhar Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:59 pm

mac wrote:

We think similarly. I don't care one jot which flavour of mediumship is used provided the communication is clearly evidential. If it's vague and uncertain it doesn't matter to me which form of mediumship delivered it. It wouldn't change my view if it's not plainly evidential. As for using an ouija board, my take is that results are determined by the quality of the intermediary's attributes.[/color]

Janhar
Not sure what you mean Smile

but I have only ever done the table alphabet- rock once for A etc. Though often had to chase it when it rocked over to someone. A few confusing attempts to climb a wall, a lot of fun. The ouija same system with a mirror and cut out letters and numbers.

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