Re: Is Spiritualism really evolving?

by mac Thu May 10, 2012 9:17 pm

It's reassuring - if that's the right sentiment - that I'm not the only one who appears to think that Modern Spiritualism has largely run its course.

What's replaced it is something I don't care for and I feel privileged that I knew Spiritualism during the last of its best days. Today those days seem very much over.... Sad

by KatyKing Thu May 10, 2012 9:23 pm

We all muddle through Leroy. No ultimate answers on this side of life but for an optimistic sociable group of folk with whom to spend a retirement's churchgoing then you'd go a long way to beat Spiritualism at local level.
We are lucky in England to have plenty of churches compared to other places but I have always said that any Spiritualist in a place where there is no church only has to advertise a discussion group for like minded people to show up.
That's how the first churches were planted.

by KatyKing Thu May 10, 2012 9:42 pm

Fings aint wot they used to be.
[Lonnie Donegan].
I really don't think there ever was a 'Golden Age' of Spiritualism and reading Gerald O'Hara's superb book Dead Men's Embers recently sort of supported that suspicion.
Spiritualism that matters to anyone on this side is a lived experience. It's whatever people called Spiritualists, aided and abetted by spirit loved ones; do now. The rest is history and tomorrow never comes.
We can fall into a trap of saying..
Ah yes but THIS Spiritualism is better than THAT Spiritualism...
but if we do that then we are not acting in the Spiritualist 'spirit'.

by mac Thu May 10, 2012 10:26 pm

I didn't call it a 'Golden Age' but I do think that Spiritualism's fortunes have declined over the past couple of decades, the "...last of its best days" as I put it. In the US it's a slightly different situation and certainly no better.

Maybe its fortunes will change, maybe it will again draw in many of those who I'm constantly hearing about, the ones who are looking for a spiritual purpose to their lives.

maybe....

by LeroyC Fri May 11, 2012 1:42 pm

Thanks for the comments.

Its not so much as being honest I think but being saddened by it all. I am in the situation of feeling that I have put so much effort and work into this subject for so long, and for what ?. Don't get me wrong, it was and is my choice.

I am very much into evidence, but I don't regret that, as its partly due to my training and the need to deal with what is in front of me. I am aware that many scientists, medics etc have taken the Spiritualist cause on board; but again the questions keep coming back, if A, then why not B ???. Findlay had the right idea when he graded the evidence he got from Sloan on its veracity !

A very famous cardiac surgeon who worked in the Uk said a few years ago that he had a strong belief in survival; but now, in his later years, he was not so sure. I feel a bit like that, but I do have the benefit of 40 years study of the subject which he did not !

I suppose like many I blow hot and cold, but I do know that if we do not go back to the roots and basics of Spiritualism we will be lost, and a laughing stock.
In this I am talking about both the standards of mental and physical mediumship. For instance who today could replicate the cross correspondence evidence that Myers and his colleagues obtained ?

There are volumes of evidence in the archives about this, but who in our Spiritualist churches knows about them ???. Next time you go mention the cross correspondence evidence and look at the blank faces!!!

I would not be surprided that Spiritualism in its present form peters out. I am dismayed at the number of psychic 'clubs' and internet 'psychics' etc. Couple this with the crap that is broadcast as 'enterainment', ie Most Haunted and the so called mediums who peddle that, then the future is not rosy.

What is of interest is the growing discussion on the origins of consciousness, and the increasing interest in the Near Death Experience. This has great relevance for Spiritualism and the issue of survival and is a growth area. This gives me some hope and encouragement, but much more work is needed; although the Awareness Study results when completed should be of interest.

The fundamental concept of survival continues, despite the medium by which the evidence is delivered changing ( excuse the pun ! ). Its just that what went on before is not going to be suitable to the audience of the future.
Its a sad day though that when I want to look for examples of evidencial communication I often have to look into Spiritualisms past. There are some bright stars today, such as George Anderson in the USA, but at sittings topping $1,000 it puts the whole subject in a terrible light.

LeroyC

by KatyKing Fri May 11, 2012 2:28 pm

Coverage of some excellent mediumship in today's latest PN along with impressed testimonials from first time attenders at the church meetings reported... sample quote ...
"I was impressed...will certainly come again". Margaret Preece also reports on recent Devon Spiritualist School, tremendous dems there. Three of our committee were delegates, it's a regular annual jolly for our church; and can confirm the fabulous evidence presented there. As long as there is good evidential mediumship that means something to those it's given to then folk will come and the more mediumship providing that, so much the better. All this new agey stuff is just window dressing combined with wishful thinking. Evidence is attractive. The better it is the more folk are attracted to come again. Gloomy predictions for the demise of classical old order Spiritualism are, as ever; premature. It's still here and still happening, whisper it.... we may even be seeing the early days of a revival in interest.

by mac Fri May 11, 2012 4:20 pm

KatyKing wrote:Coverage of some excellent mediumship in today's latest PN along with impressed testimonials from first time attenders at the church meetings reported... sample quote ...
"I was impressed...will certainly come again". Margaret Preece also reports on recent Devon Spiritualist School, tremendous dems there. Three of our committee were delegates, it's a regular annual jolly for our church; and can confirm the fabulous evidence presented there. As long as there is good evidential mediumship that means something to those it's given to then folk will come and the more mediumship providing that, so much the better. All this new agey stuff is just window dressing combined with wishful thinking. Evidence is attractive. The better it is the more folk are attracted to come again. Gloomy predictions for the demise of classical old order Spiritualism are, as ever; premature. It's still here and still happening, whisper it.... we may even be seeing the early days of a revival in interest.

"Gloomy predictions for the demise of classical old order Spiritualism are, as ever; premature." We'll see - they may actually be very timely. I haven't yet received the latest PN but just thinking back about the events surrounding PN and its near demise, things in the Spiritualism movement are far from healthy.

It's good to hear that local mediumship is giving folk what they want though and when it's reported to be happening nationwide I'll feel reassured that the movement still has some puff left in it....

"It's still here and still happening, whisper it.... we may even be seeing the early days of a revival in interest." time will tell.... The likelihood is, of course, that Modern Spiritualism won't totally disappear anyway but speaking about a revival may be little more than wishful-thinking.

We'll see....

by mac Fri May 11, 2012 4:50 pm

I'll try not to bore folk again but over the past couple or more years I've monitored quite a few so-called spiritual forums spread over several websites, contributing widely myself and mostly using the fundamental teachings found in Modern Spiritualism in the discussion. If what I've found is any indication of what may be found in society generally (and I don't know if it is) then it's a gloomy situation.

Modern Spiritualism doesn't seem to be widely known about in the cyber community. Trying to respond to even the simplest of issues, matters which are fundamental to Spiritualistic teachings, often requires a prolonged explanation about Spiritualism, frequently involving discussion about why 'spiritualism' isn't Spiritualism and frequently getting totally side-tracked by that.

When I started in 'the spooks' I had to learn everything from basics - I knew nowt - and would not have dreamed of telling others what the subject was about. Fast forward to the present day, however, and it's commonplace for forum members to blog and tweet what they 'know' about spiritualism, about mediumship, channellers Ascended Masters et al. Their 'knowledge' has often been acquired from the most questionable of sources and only occasionally is Spiritualism known about.

As I suggested earlier, if the cyber community is representative of society as a whole, Spiritualism has its work cut out if it's to spread the message of survival. The companion aspects of survival and communication through evidential mediumship hardly get a look-in right now.

When cyber-folk speak about 'spirit' it generally means a wholly different thing from what Spiritualists mean.

by petal34 Fri May 11, 2012 5:31 pm

An excellent discussion.
All sorts of information but one question made me stop and ponder.

'If a medium is able to give an individual a christian name and tell the person who it is, then why is it always almost impossible for them to give their surname ?
I know that if I communicated and wanted the person to be sure it was me, then if I was able to give my christian name, then I am damn sure I
could give my surnbame as well !!'

Why is it so rare to be given a surname?
Plenty of christian names given but surnames rarely?

Surely we do not forget our surnames on arriving in spirit.
We may....after spending some time there,I do believe memories fade in time.
Only once in a message I was given a surname and even that name was disguised in another way,it could be taken for the meaning of another word.

by Left Behind Fri May 11, 2012 8:49 pm

LeroyC wrote:

I suppose like many I blow hot and cold, but I do know that if we do not go back to the roots and basics of Spiritualism we will be lost, and a laughing stock.
In this I am talking about both the standards of mental and physical mediumship. For instance who today could replicate the cross correspondence evidence that Myers and his colleagues obtained ?

There are volumes of evidence in the archives about this, but who in our Spiritualist churches knows about them ???. Next time you go mention the cross correspondence evidence and look at the blank faces!!!

I would not be surprided that Spiritualism in its present form peters out.

What is of interest is the growing discussion on the origins of consciousness, and the increasing interest in the Near Death Experience. This has great relevance for Spiritualism and the issue of survival and is a growth area. This gives me some hope and encouragement, but much more work is needed; although the Awareness Study results when completed should be of interest.

LeroyC

I've always advocated that in every aspect of life, an institution needs to offer what it IS. Yet the opposite trend seems to be true today. Masonic lodges are offering guest speakers about making your will, or checking your blood pressure. . . churches are offering movie nights. . . Crying or Very sad

The near-death phenomenon is what got me interested in Spiritualism in the first place. NDE's convinced me that survival was real. I then turned to Spiritualism, figuring I could learn more about the next world from its residents than from its visitors! Laughing

by KatyKing Fri May 11, 2012 10:41 pm

Mediums do get surnames sometimes Joan. Street names,house numbers the works but like everything else you can only give what you get and sometimes even a first name is a struggle to get right. I gave ...
A lady,possibly young bit of a princess on this side passed in this last month. Was she aged 23 they are telling me 23.
I was sure I had that right until the lady I was linked to said well my nan just died and she lived at 23 Princess Rd.
Nowt wrong with spirit .. I was the weak link in that chain.

by KatyKing Fri May 11, 2012 10:53 pm

Now once we got the address right it all came in a flood. But I was struggling a lot of the time. First time Nan had been back and I was hesitant cos of that first snafoo but we got somewhere eventually. Other times you're bang on from the off. You just never know, every link is different.

by petal34 Sat May 12, 2012 5:36 am

KatyKing wrote:Mediums do get surnames sometimes Joan. Street names,house numbers the works but like everything else you can only give what you get and sometimes even a first name is a struggle to get right. I gave ...
A lady,possibly young bit of a princess on this side passed in this last month. Was she aged 23 they are telling me 23.
I was sure I had that right until the lady I was linked to said well my nan just died and she lived at 23 Princess Rd.
Nowt wrong with spirit .. I was the weak link in that chain.

I think twice I have been given surnames,which is not bad.
Not critising the mediums,their job is hard enough.
Was actually wondering why surnames are so hard to get.
I forget that sometimes communication between medium and sitter is not an easy job.
Embarassed

by Admin Sat May 12, 2012 12:16 pm

To me the thing I find most interesting is teh fixation on names and addresses. Most of the fake mediums have been highly succesful by the use of this information which can be gathered quite easily, if you so choose. Additionally it is the type of information which a really good psychic could pull. It is also, clearly, that which, on the whole only a Clairaudient or a really good Clairvoyant could get.

When she worked regularly in the UK Lis could do the name address and even telephone number in addition to other important information.

However, the focus in development here, over recent years, has been the deep emotianal involvements and unique unusual evidence. It has been interesting to watch and clearly is the way the predominantly clair sentient mediums' have always worked.

I do not get names or surnames but I have to have a box of tissues to hand on the last 9 occasions I have worked the tears have flowed, even a 97 year old man from Keighley in a private reading, on the basis of the story that unfolded. I do not get names readily but I can describe obscure events, the houses, the gardens, the way the people acted and reacted.

I want to make it clear that I do not believe the proof of mediumship ability is down to names and addresses alone. There is far more important and personal information a medium should get.

Jim

by Left Behind Sat May 12, 2012 8:18 pm

KatyKing wrote:Mediums do get surnames sometimes Joan. Street names,house numbers the works but like everything else you can only give what you get and sometimes even a first name is a struggle to get right. I gave ...
A lady,possibly young bit of a princess on this side passed in this last month. Was she aged 23 they are telling me 23.
I was sure I had that right until the lady I was linked to said well my nan just died and she lived at 23 Princess Rd.
Nowt wrong with spirit .. I was the weak link in that chain.

Interesting, innit, that we expect bang-on accuracy when someone's communicating in an extra-sensory manner with a person in a different dimension.

Yet do our high-tech communication systems work so well?

Since Christmas Day, I've had this computer in the shop - twice - the second time to complete the repairs they were supposed to have completed the first time. And I've had phone company technicians out to the house on three occasions.

by Left Behind Sat May 12, 2012 8:29 pm

Admin wrote:To me the thing I find most interesting is teh fixation on names and addresses. Most of the fake mediums have been highly succesful by the use of this information which can be gathered quite easily, if you so choose. Additionally it is the type of information which a really good psychic could pull. It is also, clearly, that which, on the whole only a Clairaudient or a really good Clairvoyant could get.

When she worked regularly in the UK Lis could do the name address and even telephone number in addition to other important information.

However, the focus in development here, over recent years, has been the deep emotianal involvements and unique unusual evidence. It has been interesting to watch and clearly is the way the predominantly clair sentient mediums' have always worked.

I do not get names or surnames but I have to have a box of tissues to hand on the last 9 occasions I have worked the tears have flowed, even a 97 year old man from Keighley in a private reading, on the basis of the story that unfolded. I do not get names readily but I can describe obscure events, the houses, the gardens, the way the people acted and reacted.

I want to make it clear that I do not believe the proof of mediumship ability is down to names and addresses alone. There is far more important and personal information a medium should get.

Jim

I'd say both yes and no about addresses. If I make an appointment for two weeks hence with a medium, leaving my full name, it's not that mind-boggling to assume that he was able to get my old address via the internet.

However, if I walk in to a church in a strange city with no advance warning and the platform medium rattles off my old address and phone number, he surely didn't get them from the internet and not likely from mind-reading, either.

I agree that it's the more personal stuff, though, that's both more evidential and more desired. Tell me where I lived when I was three. . . that's interesting, and proof of something, but it doesn't satisfy my longings to know about my deceased loved ones. But tell me about the time my grandmother and I went for a walk when I was the same age, the toy she bought me, what I named it, how I lost it overboard that summer. . . that's mighty strong evidence that my grandmother's psyche lives on, and spoke with you.

by KatyKing Sat May 12, 2012 8:43 pm

I agree Jim Admin. It's more the affective lnks these days rather than addresses or what sort of car they preferred on this side etc. I did fourteen back to back sittings today at Tea with Spirit do at church and all of those towards the affective emotional links Had some names too and one maybe needed more of that tangible evidence to move us into the main message but the rest sat down convinced and we went on from there.
Very odd spare at the end. Not booked but he'd wandered in late saying he was desperate and they sent him to me . 'Haunted by an evil Spirit' and that after fourteen sittings you just do not need. Sometimes you just want to say 'NO'. Have the strongest feeling he was just taking the proverbial but referred him to our 'rescue' chap who ,sensibly; had disappeared..

by Left Behind Sun May 13, 2012 2:37 am

Evil spirits leave me alone, for the most part, thank God. But I'm afraid one of my cats is possessed by demons. Laughing

by petal34 Sun May 13, 2012 4:55 am

I think one of the most interesting messages I received was a description of my living room.
The reading focused on three pictures that were hanging on the wall.
One of hubby in uniform,one of the two of us taken together and one of his army badge.
Now that was a very evidential reading. Perfect.
Very Happy

by mac Sun May 13, 2012 8:25 am

So-called readings within the Spiritualism environment (consistent with this thread's title) are likely to fall into one of two main classes. One is evidential mediumship the other being psychic reading. It can be easy to mistake the latter for the former and even practitioners may use the latter (deliberately or inadvertently) when the former is more appropriate.

I don't often speak about myself but in my early time I experienced how easy it is to mistake one for the other. Two significant individuals told me 'stuff' - gave me 'readings' if you like. Those readings I took to be mediumistic as I was too green to know any better and my trusted friends told me they were mediums.

The 'stuff' they told me was accurate and highly significant to our then-recent bereavement. It was right for me at that time and eventually led to where I am, who I am, now. BUT most of the 'stuff' from my readings was unattributed although I didn't realise the significance of that.

Later, when I'd had time to ponder this 'stuff' by myself (meditate as some say Wink

) I felt uneasy. The details were accurate in the main - that wasn't the problem but where that information was supposed to have come from was a problem for me. With my small but growing understanding I analysed what had been happening and realised that the 'mediumship' I thought I had experienced was more of a psychic reading. Every so often I did identify issues where I felt confident it wasn't and it taught me then-and-there just how easy it is to mistake one for the other.....

So, nearly three decades on, I'm banging on again about 'readings' just as I'm doing elsewhere on other websites, other forums. I'm still reading accounts where enquirers marvel at the information they're given little realising that it can hardly fail to be accurate, they can hardly fail to authenticate it, because it's coming straight from the enquirer. But the enquirer thinks it was mediumship and the practitioner may not have told them clearly whether it actually was - or may not have known if it wasn't.

hey, ho, onward and upward

by hiorta Sun May 13, 2012 11:57 am

Mac, if the information given to you was helpful in any way, or suggested an avenue of thought, or course of exploration, would it's immediate source really matter?

All views are someone's opinion and we have to evaluate them as they might apply to our own circumstances. To dignify a view from a Spirit person as having some extra or celestial approval would be a grave mistake. We must, ultimately, take responsibility for all we do, say or think, whether or not another individual suggested or approved our decision.
It is great to have such support in times of perplexity, but we, ourselves have the capability to discern where best to go, from wherever we might stand at the moment.
(I hope all is well with and around you)

by LeroyC Sun May 13, 2012 12:43 pm

Hello everyone,

Some very interesting thoughts. Very pleased I found this site where it appears such a common sense approach prevails on the subject.

I still remain bemused by the fact that if genuine communication is taking place why a communicator can give a christain name and not a surname !!.

However, there are probably many variables at work. Sometimes we do see mediums doing this; of course Gordon Higginson would often get such information and much more. Perhaps its a question of the mediums attunement, and of course today the Spiritualistic 'platform' is a parade ground of the mundane, weird and esoteric in many instances.

I am sure that true communication is much less common than we think. Myers was attributed with saying that communication from Spirit was like looking at us through a frosted glass, and that we probably do not realise just how difficult it is.

In all these years though I can count on one hand the truly memorable communications I have had. Often it only takes a word or two or a sentence to be so evidential.

Here's an example, a few words, but meaning so much.

A few years ago I was at a local church listening to a Tuesday night 'double act', well half listening and waiting to see what would transpire at the open circle when this medium and his mate would finish.
I had no knowledge of these two mediums. I had seen them both before and they were nice people but they did not know me, and I had never had a message.

Suddenly the younger guy turned to me with a message. Off he went with one ot two bits which were vague when he suddenly said...I've got Bert, and he's talking about the organ'.

The rest of the message was a blurr. NO ONE in that church, let alone the medium knew that the organ in the church ( which I had donated to them; a large electronic one ) had belonged to my dear friend Bert. ( and I always called him Bert ).

Bert was not only my best friend he was also a superb organist who helped me so much, as I also play the organ. We would spend many weekends chatting and playing this organ in is home and listening to concets.

When he passed his son had no use for the organ which was in his living room, so I said I would buy it. As it was too big for my house at the time I gave it to the local Spiritualist church where I would sometimes play for the services. It was sitting in the church that night.

Only a few words them but very significant to me. So, was it Bert, or was it telepathy with the living ?.

The fact it that the supporters of telepathy are by its very nature admiting that communication can take place between 'mind to mind'. The very act of that leads one to conclude that 'something' has transfered from brain to brain, and this survives and has intentionality outside of the body. It thus indirectly supports a survival hypthesis.

by mac Sun May 13, 2012 1:07 pm

"hiorta"

my responses in blue text for simplicity....

Mac, if the information given to you was helpful in any way, or suggested an avenue of thought, or course of exploration, would it's immediate source really matter? No and perhaps it came as it did by the intent of whoever is helping me, hence my comment on who I am and what I'm doing now. Maybe it was intended those particular experiences would be of indirect benefit - not for me but for me to pass on to help others. Or is that just making things fit, altogether too grand?

All views are someone's opinion and we have to evaluate them as they might apply to our own circumstances. As I pointed out I don't often use my own situation to make a point but my 'readings' were not solely opinions....To dignify a view from a Spirit person as having some extra or celestial approval would be a grave mistake. I'm sure you'll agree nothing I'd written even suggested any such thing and I'm frequently at pains in cautioning others on that point ...We must, ultimately, take responsibility for all we do, say or think, whether or not another individual suggested or approved our decision. Indeed we must but again, personally, that situation did not occur. I did not give details but there were no suggestions, no advice given to me.....
It is great to have such support in times of perplexity, but we, ourselves have the capability to discern where best to go, from wherever we might stand at the moment. Some of us will have such capabilities where others may not. It's never a one-size-fits-all situation. I'm appreciative for whatever support I've received that has helped me on my personal path but I have not a single clue what help that might have been. I strenuously avoid attributing anything to outside agencies for fear of 'making things fit' when they don't fit at all..... Wink

(I hope all is well with and around you) Thank you for that thought - we continue to muddle through as best we can. Smile

by KatyKing Sun May 13, 2012 2:50 pm

Mediums sit.
Psychics read.
Minimum of three parties at a sitting one being a spirit.
Just two at a reading.
A working medium may flip flop between the psychic and mediumistic when delivering from the platform or at a sitting.
Shouldn't happen in an ideal world but it does all the time. We're trained to be able to differentiate between the two conditions. Some working mediums are autodidacts so haven't been trained. No harm in that at all recipients don't necessarily know or care where information stems from as long as it's relevant and meets their requirements.
Alice St SNU church in USA bills all its demmers as 'ntuitives' Maybe that' the wy of the future.
Now I'm an old fashioned medium just about as traditional a you'll find but once a month I work alongside card readers,palmists a chap who scrys usng dominos [god at it too]. Folk take their pick and mix and match who they wish tosee. Packed out again yesterday we were. Some will come again for regular church meetings many won't but once a month at Tea with Spirit the place is absolutely buzzing and our membership goes up steadily if slowly. Let a thousand flowers bloom is my adopted motto.
As an aside and I keep posting this. I realise that Gordon Higginson is perhaps the closest the SNU comes to havng a saint. I knew him,he demmd at our SNU church and I saw him dem at other SNU venues gigs and rallies. He was everywhere. Gordon was a fair medium who would operate from the psychic too if the gig was flagging. I have seen and heard him do both. He had a prodigious memory for people and had worked the circuits from being a lad. He knew everybody and many of his messages were simply chats to old chms about mutual aquaintances. He was as good but no better than the bulk of mediums working then or now. Nostalgia can't make Gordon, a man I greatly respected for his hard work for the movement; any better than he actually was which is no criticism. New faces at Gordon's dems got little or nothing save generalities. SNU mediumship was like that so he was no different than most. It's one of the reasons SNU was never strong on recruitment. There was and still to some extent is a cliquey us and them ness about it with the us who are known insiders getting the vast majority of messages. The thems who are newcomers in the main leve disappointed. Now I just know someone will contradict me by saying that Gordon brought their late brother's army number Pin code and blood type through on first meeting and that is wonderful. He was a medium. That's what we are for. But by and large and all I ever saw was reminiscence mixed with cheery words possibly from spirit sometimes but probably from the psychic at others.

by zerdini Sun May 13, 2012 5:13 pm

I have seldom read such drivel as the post above. Anyone would think you were an outstanding medium but you were unheard of before coming on here and trying to take over the forum.

Your comments about Gordon Higginson are as silly as your comments about Leslie Flint. It's fairly obvious from what you have written that you knew very little about Gordon or his mediumship or even mediumship in general. People flocked to meetings when Gordon was the speaker and demonstrator because of the high quality of his mediumship. I chaired many meetings for him in different parts of the country so I had a first hand view of his mediumship.

To say, "He was as good but no better than the bulk of mediums working then or now" is patently absurd. He was head and shoulders above the rest which is why he was constantly in demand. The remainder of your remarks are, quite frankly, beneath contempt and not worthy of a reply.

People have commented that you have an opinion on everything as though you are the fount of all knowledge. It might be advisable to stand back and look at what you write before rushing in "where angels fear to tread".

I realise that people have commented on this before but it seems like it's water off a duck's back as far as you are concerned.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Peter.

by Sponsored content