real or not?

Left Behind wrote:

obiwan wrote:I asked for the evidence against reincarnation and you said you preferred arguments rather than evidence . I am confused now.

You will no doubt remember from your legal training that a person saying they have not experienced an event is not evidence that no one has, only that they havent. It certainly does not mean that the event cannot occur.

Most of my friends have never been to Australia. Does that mean it is impossible? I know people who say they have but as it's not possible they must be mistaken or trying to trick me.

OK, I'll try, one last time.

EVIDENCE is anything that is offerred to prove the proposition under dispute. The law recognizes two types of evidence: testimonial, and physical.

If the proposition under dispute is whether Jones shot and killed Smith, with malice aforethought, testimonial evidence would be such things as sworn statements to the effect that someone saw Jones level the gun at Smith: that they heard the gunshot, saw Smith fall to the floor: that Jones had previously told them he hated Smith, planned to kill him, had a revolver that he intended to use for the purpose: etc.

Physical evidence would be such things as: the bullet extracted from Smith's body: a written report from a forensic examiner stating that the bullet was fired from a certain revolver: sales records indicating that Jones had purchased that same revolver: etc.

As I said before: physical evidence is totally inapplicable regarding reincarnation. One can't expect a baby to be born clutching the Sioux arrow that killed him during his alleged previous existence with the 7th US Cavalry: or wearing the wedding ring from his alleged previous marriage to the woman whose husband died 10 years ago.

So we're left with testimonial.

How many people remember an alleged prior life? Very few.

How many people don't remember an alleged prior life? Legions.

What does the weight of the evidence then indicate? I'll let you draw the inference.

If 20 people testify that they were standing at the corner of Main and Second Streets at noon on 15 January and that they did NOT see a polka dot elephant pass by, no, that does NOT prove that "nobody" saw such a sight. But given the testimony of these 20, vs. the testimony of 1 other who states that he was there at the time, and that he DID see such a sight. . . again, I'll leave it up to you to decide whether it's more likely that the elephant passed by, or not.

As I stated before - and I'm not going to rehash all those arguments - reincarnation makes logical sense only in the context of a Buddhist type of theological world view. It does not make sense in the context of a Christian or a Spiritualist world view. Those "arguments" - coupled with the fact that the testimonial evidence is overwhelmingly against it - leads me to NOT believe in it.

The issue isn't whether reincarnation is possible, or impossible. The issue is whether reincarnation is probable, or not. In my example above, the elephant COULD have passed by. The likelihood is that it did not.

Left Behind wrote:I see no evidence of it in my life. The evidence that other people adduce in favor of it is, to me, far outweighed by the evidence against it.

KatyKing wrote:Ancient ancient quasi argument. It's simply a re-hash of William James 'One white crow ' aphorism. Sounds profound but is in fact a trite trism. Really chaps [and it's always men!] some of the rhetoric on here passing for reasoned dicourse would be unworthy of the junior common room in a provincial university.
You cannot reach a resolution unless you agree prior definitions. Some here are simply even simplisticaly shouting opinions across self erected barricades. That's really not the spiritualist way as we are and always have been an ecletic and inclusive consituency welcoming all. It's the posturing one normally associates with our more fundamentalist Xtian chums If you say you are right and I am wrong then you my friend are not a spiritualist. Informed civility and acknowledged mutuality are essential for argument [taking that term in the philosophical sense] to progress constructively. Some posts here bear the hallmarks of a row between fishwives. Just agree to disagree at worst and move on. We don't do conversion so why attempt to convert? Then again some sorry sorts are unhappy unless they can bully their own pet prejudice to the fore.

Left Behind wrote:Obiwan, and everyone:

I have made it clear that I don't believe in reincarnation. I have given my reasons why.

I'm not going to keep repeating the same reasons, nor come up with new ones, nor engage in hairsplitting arguments regarding evidentiary standards or definitions.

I WOULD like to comment, however, that I could readily come up with a counter-argument for every argument I gave, and am surprised that I've not hearing them from the pro-reincarnationists!

If you believe in reincarnation: that's good. I don't: and that's good too.

I will not comment further in this Thread. Life is short.

Jim

White Feather Teachings

Reincarnation
White Feather and the controversial topic of reincarnation never seem to be far
apart. Indeed, the guide has commented on more than one occasion that he
enjoys speaking on the subject even though in some spiritualist circles it
seems to be taboo. Here are a selection of questions put to the guide
beginning with one from a concerned gentleman who was of the opinion that
any return to the earth was a retrograde step.

Questioner: “Reincarnation, is it a step backward ? We come to this earth to
learn and experience. When we move to the higher world we progress, it
seems to me, that when we reincarnate, we take a step back !

White Feather: “You know, when you have a plant, a flower or a bush growing in
your garden, do you ever prune it back in order that it may grow to something greater
than it is?
Because that in a sense is what reincarnation often entails. Let me say that there is
in my view, no going back. All progress is in an upward trend from the lower to the
higher, from captivity to freedom. The reason that you are often reintroduced into
the body of matter through what is termed reincarnation is not a backward step but to
actually propel you forward and give you a greater impetus because you come into
form, you come into a body, the male and the female, because you are imperfect, as
are we all. We make mistakes, we stumble, we fall, we err at that which has been
created, that which has often created suffering either to itself or to others creates a
pattern which has to outwork itself. So you have to come back, to be reintroduced
into the body of matter to put right that which was wrong. To cancel out the debt
and so advance your spiritual growth.

So it is not a backward step in actual fact, it is an opportunity to redress the balance,
to restore harmony, to continue your progress in an upward vein in my world. Do
you understand that? Do you agree with it?

Questioner: “Yes.”

White Feather: “I hope that helps you. Good.”

Question: “When we look around we hear so much about reincarnation, are
there any other worlds or do we have to return to this world? Do we have a
choice of whether or not to reincarnate?”

White Feather: “In a simple one word answer, yes. Let me say that language is
very important and you do not HAVE to return in the sense that you are compelled to
or are instructed to by someone or by God. It is a matter of your own conscience,
for your own soul, but it comes about when there is a realization that you can no
longer progress in my world without perhaps leaning lessons in the physical plane of
life and putting right that which you have done wrong, creating an imbalance in the
past and now going back to create a balance. And so you choose, and it is a self
choice, to return again to this play in order to redress the balance and to then
continue to progress upward.

You do not have to come back always over a period to the same planet. There are
other worlds that you can experience upon, but the point that you have to remember
is that if you created an imbalance in this place, then what better place to return to
correct it? And when that has been accomplished then you can move onto other
experiences and other worlds. Life is endless. You think of time and you think
perhaps of three dimensions, but your life upon the earth is but a speck. It is but the
blink of an eye compared to eternity and you come time and time again through
different forms to different worlds if it is appropriate that you should do so in order to
further your spiritual education. Let me just say in conclusion to this that there will
be a time when you no longer return to the physical universe because there is no
purpose served by your lessons, so to speak, and you can continue your progress
and learning in the spiritual realms of which there are innumerable levels.”

Question: “If we all reincarnate, who is it that mediums are speaking to? If
my father who was not very nice speaks through a medium what happens
then?”

White Feather: “Who is that mediums are speaking to? Do you mean the guide or
the instrument who speaks through the medium?”

Questioner: If my father has reincarnated upon the earth, how can I speak to
him? What if he comes back before I die? How will I ever recognize him? A
medium once gave me a message that he had reincarnated, how can this be
true?”

White Feather: “It doesn’t quite work like that! There are laws that operate,
devised by mind that is greater than you or I. And let me say that once a cycle has
been embarked upon, it has to outwork itself before another one begins. If I can
open this up to you in the broadest sense. Where you have an instance of a father
or mother, a brother or sister, or a child that is in my world now, you will find that they
will not reincarnate until you have served your time upon the earth and passed into
my world. It would be a great shock to the soul, it would be a great shock to you if
upon passing into my world you found that your beloved was not there waiting for
you, that they had gone again into another form. That is not the way of the Great
Spirit. Only when the harvest is gathered in, when the laws and the cycles have
outworked themselves can any individual have earned the right to reincarnate upon
your world. Does that help you?

So if you have a communication from your father and it is a genuine one, then you
can rest assured that he is still in my world !”
Whenever reincarnation is discussed there are always questions regarding
‘past lives’ and whether or not we can access these either through becoming
aware of them as we progress or through hypnotic regression:

Question: “Regarding reincarnation, if you believe that you have been
reincarnated and have memories of such, is it true representation of a past
life?”

White Feather: “There is a chance, I wouldn’t like to put a percentage on it
because everyone is different and some have greater insight and perception into
past lives. Whilst others have a vivid imagination! There are reasons why you are
not always able to gain access to past lives. It is a protective mechanism for one
thing and I have to be careful here because the one through whom I speak (Robert)
and the one with whom he links (Amanda) are often asked to regress individuals
through the use of hypnosis, and I have to say that it is something with which I do not
always agree.

There are however, times when individuals do gain access to their past and when
you have earned the right to know then it is indeed possible that you have
awareness of past lives, that you have glimpses of the past, and it is up to you as to
whether you pursue that to any great level. But I must warn you that sometimes you
know, it is not wise to know all that you have been in the past because you are not
spiritually ready or strong enough to have that knowledge. There are even those in
my world… you know, when you pass into my world at death you are not always,
indeed seldom aware of past lives. It is only when you have grown spiritually and
have the strength that you become aware of the other facets of the diamond, of that
which you are and that which you have been.

On another trance evening the guide was again asked about the use of
hypnosis to uncover past lives and went into greater detail of why he believed
that although it could be effective, it should only be used sparingly.

White Feather: “….I am not greatly in favour of the use of hypnosis for regression
although even I must concede that at times it has been used to release a blockage
that has been causing a disturbance in this life and that perhaps had a cause, as is
very often the case, in a past life. The danger or the difficulty as I perceive it is that
it not always wise to look back, as it were, in to a past existence unless one is ready
to do so, because one can find that one is greatly shocked by what is unfolded. To
use your language, it is like ‘opening a can of worms’. One has to be very careful.

Hypnosis used in the right hands by a skilled person who has in my view the right
spiritual knowledge and wisdom, allied to the technical ability, can be a helpful thing.
But so often, as is the trend today that out of mere curiosity individuals seek to
uncover their past lives, to know who they were and what they did….and very often
this can lead to further difficulties and traumas. So one has to exercise caution in
my view. Does that help?”

Questioner: “Yes to a point…but are you saying that reincarnation is true,
because there are some guides who dispute this?”

White Feather: “Absolutely, Absolutely. Those of you who are familiar with the
philosophy which I seek to bring will know that I have never wavered from the fact
that reincarnation is a fact and that you indeed…or a facet of you comes here
through a physical form many, many times in order to gain experience and unfold the
divinity within it. It cannot be accomplished in one lifetime.”

nick pettitt wrote:thanks Leslie..., interesting that White Feather says 'a facet of you comes here through a physical form many, many times' which suggests to me that it's only a part of us that's incarnated in physical matter and that the greater part of us is still in the spirit world. I guess because our consciousness has to work through a physical brain we can only understand things at a physical level and can't properly interpret what comes from the part of us that's in spirit. Maybe that part is what some people call the higher self... more food for thought...

mac wrote:

nick pettitt wrote:thanks Leslie..., interesting that White Feather says 'a facet of you comes here through a physical form many, many times' which suggests to me that it's only a part of us that's incarnated in physical matter and that the greater part of us is still in the spirit world. I guess because our consciousness has to work through a physical brain we can only understand things at a physical level and can't properly interpret what comes from the part of us that's in spirit. Maybe that part is what some people call the higher self... more food for thought...

I'm not convinced by this 'facet' argument which is said to suggest a 'remainder' of our total self remaining in the etheric.

As always we're left to struggle on with words which can imply many things but as we well know, the way words get used is highly imprecise. I'm always reluctant to pay too much heed to the detail of words, much more comfortable by their overall intent.

nick pettitt wrote:

mac wrote:

nick pettitt wrote:thanks Leslie..., interesting that White Feather says 'a facet of you comes here through a physical form many, many times' which suggests to me that it's only a part of us that's incarnated in physical matter and that the greater part of us is still in the spirit world. I guess because our consciousness has to work through a physical brain we can only understand things at a physical level and can't properly interpret what comes from the part of us that's in spirit. Maybe that part is what some people call the higher self... more food for thought...

I'm not convinced by this 'facet' argument which is said to suggest a 'remainder' of our total self remaining in the etheric.

As always we're left to struggle on with words which can imply many things but as we well know, the way words get used is highly imprecise. I'm always reluctant to pay too much heed to the detail of words, much more comfortable by their overall intent.

Magnus who speaks through medium Colin Fry has always been against the idea of reincarnation but he does say that an 'aspect' of a person can come back to the earth plane and attach to someone to learn from their earthly experiences. He also says that memories of previous lives when regressed are in fact the earthly lives of the attachment(s)

mac wrote:

nick pettitt wrote:

mac wrote:

nick pettitt wrote:thanks Leslie..., interesting that White Feather says 'a facet of you comes here through a physical form many, many times' which suggests to me that it's only a part of us that's incarnated in physical matter and that the greater part of us is still in the spirit world. I guess because our consciousness has to work through a physical brain we can only understand things at a physical level and can't properly interpret what comes from the part of us that's in spirit. Maybe that part is what some people call the higher self... more food for thought...

I'm not convinced by this 'facet' argument which is said to suggest a 'remainder' of our total self remaining in the etheric.

As always we're left to struggle on with words which can imply many things but as we well know, the way words get used is highly imprecise. I'm always reluctant to pay too much heed to the detail of words, much more comfortable by their overall intent.

Magnus who speaks through medium Colin Fry has always been against the idea of reincarnation but he does say that an 'aspect' of a person can come back to the earth plane and attach to someone to learn from their earthly experiences. He also says that memories of previous lives when regressed are in fact the earthly lives of the attachment(s)

I know Colin. (aka Lincoln) I know Magnus. I don't understand any of what he's said (above) at all....

A so-called attachment as described makes no sense for me unless it's equivalent to 'over-shadowing'?

nick pettitt wrote:

mac wrote:

nick pettitt wrote:thanks Leslie..., interesting that White Feather says 'a facet of you comes here through a physical form many, many times' which suggests to me that it's only ...............against the idea of reincarnation but he does say that an 'aspect' of a person can come back to the earth plane and attach to someone to learn from their earthly experiences. He also says that memories of previous lives when regressed are in fact the earthly lives of the attachment(s)

I know Colin. (aka Lincoln) I know Magnus. I don't understand any of what he's said (above) at all....

A so-called attachment as described makes no sense for me unless it's equivalent to 'over-shadowing'?

It's nothing to do with overshadowing, the way he describes attachments is that they can subtly influence us with thoughts that we perceive as our own...