real or not?

I'm confused. I see that 'Reincarnation Real or Not' is lumped in wirh with 'New Age Concepts and Related Areas of Belief......'

Maybe "As a body Spiritualism is neutral....." but is 'reincarnation' really a question of belief for other Spiritualists? Can we keep things simple by considering 'reincarnation' as just the principle that we experience more than one physical life?

I try not to believe in anything - usually I succeed. Either there's evidence (the definition of 'proof' isn't worth debating) sufficient for me to understand that something is the case - 'true' if you wish - or there isn't. If there isn't evidence, I set the matter aside until I decide to revisit it, or until evidence appears, or until it becomes unimportant to me.

Maybe I've moved on from my early learning to such a point that the notion of reincarnation is deeply integral to my understanding of life. I rarely consider the matter. I guess that if I had to wonder if it's 'true' then I wouldn't be where I am now. I suppose that's why I was surprised - on a Spiritualism based forum - to see this notion lumped in with all the other 'stuff'.

So what do others feel?

Hi Mac,

Good point I'm prepared to move the whole topic. I am very conservative with this because I have seen the chaos caused by opposing views elsewhere.

glad to have you with us

Jim

Ok Mac lets try closely related.

Jim

Hi Mac,

I agree that one might consider reincarnation as the 'principle' that we experience more than one life. In one respect I have always considered that the spiritualist principles "the continuous existence of the human soul" and that which states "eternal progress open to every soul" leaves open the idea that such continuous existence and eternal progress might occur, as a result of one physical life with subsequent existences in the spirit realms, or by repeated physical existences or even by numerous further existences in the spirit dimensions or perhaps on other 'level's of consciousness.

Over the years I have favoured one understanding over another. At times feeling strongly in favour of reincarnation, while at other times opposed (largely because of the difficulty of establishing evidential validation of the concept), and in yet other times finding myself sitting (perhaps somewhat cowardly) on the fence about it all.

What I do find curious, as a person who has an interest in the historical perspective of things, is that until the 1870's, when there was a significant and sudden influx of information about eastern religious and philiosophical traditions, such concepts as reincarnation played no part in the emerging spiritualist movement.

As translations of many ancient Buddhist, Hindhu and other texts, were taking place and being presented to the western world, and when people, such as Helena Blavatsky were formulating their ideas, ultimately to be defined as 'theosophist', some early spiritualists incorporated some form or other of the reincarnation doctrine into their belief system while others found it just too 'foreign' and, from their cultural, sociological and philosophical perspective, not a concept that belonged in spiritualism.

It is interesting to me that from that time onwards, communications from 'spirit' have seemed equally divided on the subject, with some notable spirit guides and teachers staunchly advocating and supporting the reincarnation hypothesis, while others just as adamently claimed that it was a nonsense.

While it might be tempting to argue that one or other position must surely reflect 'faulty' communiction' or 'self delusion, etc, it seems to me that the belief in reincarnation, or the opposition to it as a way of spiritual evolution, might in itself reflect that fundamental idea of continuous existence or eternal progress. Which represents it most accurately, that is, whether it is a belief in reincarnation that suggests the greater understanding of spiritual evolution, or a disbelief in reincarnation that most accurately reflects the degree of spiritual progression of the individual, is not something I feel qualified to determine. In that respect, I might be accused of fence sitting, but in truth I really do not know which is the truth.

I have some strong visual images, which "feel" like "memories", of existing in other times, in other bodies, with other mind sets, and understandings, yet I have nothing that can or does provide me with a sense of certainty that such existences either occurred or were, most importanly, "mine" in the sense that I understand "myself" to be.

The subject intrigues me, but again, I find myself, at this point in my life unsure. If others are sure, and feel or believe, or 'know', that reincarnation is a reality for them, I will not only respect their position, but actively support it, yet not, because of that determine that I must alter my position and believe absolutely in reincarnation.

As I grow older, (and I feel that I am growing older more rapidly these days than in the past), I feel less and less inclined or able to be dogmatically certain about anything, especially that which concerns spirit, the nature of spirit, or of existence. It seemed so very simple in the beginning when one knew nothing, and now so terribly complex and mysterious when one supposedly has learned so much.

Regards,

Lis

Hello Lis,
I personally do believe in reincarnation for several reasons that sit right with-in me, 1. there is a passage in the bible that says something to the effect some thought when they heard of Jesus's words they thought Elijah had come back as Jesus, although wasn't it Elijah who was taken to heaven without going thru the death process?..with that it leaves me wonderment on reincarnation...but non the less there is also...2. The Bible says it is appointed for man to die once notice it says appointed all other words strictly coming from the Lord are very distinct either it is or it is not but this time it is stated appointed as if meaning the possability of a choice...3. the basics of karma...4. as of the master piece of the making of the human mind and body and learning of ones soul I do not believe can be consumed in one life time....5. and as you have stated I too have distinct memories of times and people not of text-books as some would claim thats where they came from its different nor from a movie it is hard to explane the memories and thoughts that come thru often...6. For me it explains the need to become as perfected as we possibly can and I don't believe it can be established in one life time....I also believe we all have to experience all different aspects of different ways of living (richer, poorer, having it all, not having it all, handicapped, physically fit to be of one culture and others and so on to truly experience the need to be tolorence and understanding of all situations in order to grow spiritually fully and there for having free-will I again can not accept it can be done in one life time as example I can not be black and white or asian and american and so on in one life time....I hooe I have explained this well enough as I see the need for the reincarnation issue.......scorpio53

Hi Lis

I'm in green, your words in red

I agree that one might consider reincarnation as the 'principle' that we experience more than one life. In one respect I have always considered that the spiritualist principles "the continuous existence of the human soul" and that which states "eternal progress open to every soul" leaves open the idea that such continuous existence and eternal progress might occur, as a result of one physical life with subsequent existences in the spirit realms, or by repeated physical existences or even by numerous further existences in the spirit dimensions or perhaps on other 'level's of consciousness. On a personal level this is how I understand the situation but for the sake of my earlier piece I kept it simple - too often reincarnaton gets muddied by aspects such as karma - I wanted to avoid that distraction.

Over the years I have favoured one understanding over another. At times feeling strongly in favour of reincarnation, while at other times opposed (largely because of the difficulty of establishing evidential validation of the concept), and in yet other times finding myself sitting (perhaps somewhat cowardly) on the fence about it all. Over the years I became increasingly certain about reincarnation.
What I do find curious, as a person who has an interest in the historical perspective of things, is that until the 1870's, when there was a significant and sudden influx of information about eastern religious and philiosophical traditions, such concepts as reincarnation played no part in the emerging spiritualist movement.

As translations of many ancient Buddhist, Hindhu and other texts, were taking place and being presented to the western world, and when people, such as Helena Blavatsky were formulating their ideas, ultimately to be defined as 'theosophist', some early spiritualists incorporated some form or other of the reincarnation doctrine into their belief system while others found it just too 'foreign' and, from their cultural, sociological and philosophical perspective, not a concept that belonged in spiritualism. I am not familiar with the details and do not find history particularly interesting or useful...

It is interesting to me that from that time onwards, communications from 'spirit' have seemed equally divided on the subject, with some notable spirit guides and teachers staunchly advocating and supporting the reincarnation hypothesis, while others just as adamently claimed that it was a nonsense. If memory serves me well, Silver Birch also describes that disagreement between teachers too but I think I'm right in saying that he had no doubts?

While it might be tempting to argue that one or other position must surely reflect 'faulty' communiction' or 'self delusion, etc, it seems to me that the belief in reincarnation, or the opposition to it as a way of spiritual evolution, might in itself reflect that fundamental idea of continuous existence or eternal progress. Which represents it most accurately, that is, whether it is a belief in reincarnation that suggests the greater understanding of spiritual evolution, or a disbelief in reincarnation that most accurately reflects the degree of spiritual progression of the individual, is not something I feel qualified to determine. In that respect, I might be accused of fence sitting, but in truth I really do not know which is the truth. This paragraph has made me think a lot. I share the same uncertainty but have never considered that either stance showed greater or lesser spiritual progression. One's particular persuasions this time around are not necessarily any guide to what we know away from here - wouldn't you agree? As I'm in the former camp, however, I hope that I'm making appropriate progress!!


I have some strong visual images, which "feel" like "memories", of existing in other times, in other bodies, with other mind sets, and understandings, yet I have nothing that can or does provide me with a sense of certainty that such existences either occurred or were, most importanly, "mine" in the sense that I understand "myself" to be. I've never experienced a thing - I'm as sensitive as a rotten log at the bottom of a murky pond.

The subject intrigues me, but again, I find myself, at this point in my life unsure. If others are sure, and feel or believe, or 'know', that reincarnation is a reality for them, I will not only respect their position, but actively support it, yet not, because of that determine that I must alter my position and believe absolutely in reincarnation. I don't believe in reincarnation any more than I believe in incarnation. One simply preceeds the other and each are parts of life - simple as apple pie for me I'm glad to say.

As I grow older, (and I feel that I am growing older more rapidly these days than in the past), I feel less and less inclined or able to be dogmatically certain about anything, especially that which concerns spirit, the nature of spirit, or of existence. It seemed so very simple in the beginning when one knew nothing, and now so terribly complex and mysterious when one supposedly has learned so much. As I grow older I know I'm at risk of seeming dogmatic but I feel comfortable with what I feel, understand, however imperfectly. It's fine for my needs. I'm often astonished at the apparently-deliberate complexity of some of the ideas put about in other threads on other forums. I'm very thankful that having come from a situation where EVERY ISSUE was complex and mysterious, and needed to be researched extensively, I now find very little about which I have reservation or uncertainty.

Hope this scheme for replying has worked OK and that I've added something useful?

mac

scorpio53 wrote:Hello Lis,
I personally do believe in reincarnation for several reasons that sit right with-in me, 1. there is a passage in the bible that says something to the effect some thought when they heard of Jesus's words they thought Elijah had come back as Jesus, although wasn't it Elijah who was taken to heaven without going thru the death process?..with that it leaves me wonderment on reincarnation...but non the less there is also...2. The Bible says it is ...............................this well enough as I see the need for the reincarnation issue.......scorpio53

quote: "I also believe we all have to experience all different aspects of different ways of living (richer, poorer, having it all, not having it all, handicapped, physically fit to be of one culture and others and so on to truly experience the need to be tolorence and understanding of all situations in order to grow spiritually fully ............" Yes I can understand how you feel and I used to feel the same BUT what I have since learned is that it is possible to experience others situations vicariously ie we can also learn/experience from the other souls/spirits who form part of our individual soul-cells. Put simply we don't have to experience every situation directly ourselves - we can acquire this exposure from our spiritually-close companions.


Just a thought.....

Mac and Lis - fascinating stuff you have posted. Legendary guides Silver Birch and Red Cloud have frequently testified to the reality of reincarnation, but have also emphasised that it is always a matter of personal choice. They have both also stated that equivalent spiritual progress can be made in the spirit world, without the need to return to earth, though at a much slower rate without the manifold challenges to be faced and overcome on earth. Would you choose reincarnation in the light of that? If so, why?

Edward

Edward wrote:Mac and Lis - fascinating stuff you have posted. Legendary guides Silver Birch and Red Cloud have frequently testified to the reality of reincarnation, but have also emphasised that it is always a matter of personal choice. They have both also stated that equivalent spiritual progress can be made in the spirit world, without the need to return to earth, though at a much slower rate without the manifold challenges to be faced and overcome on earth. Would you choose reincarnation in the light of that? If so, why?

Edward

Glad you've enjoyed our discussions, Edward, and you've also made some good points .

The answer to your fnal question might be that I (personally) can't know how things will feel for me when I am back 'over there' and hence I don't know what choice I will be inclined to make. Perhaps the temptation not to undertake a further physical incarnation will be too great to resist. I readily agree that life in the body presents major challenges but, equally, the temptation to reincarnate in order to progress spiritually at a faster rate might be too great to resist! The decision is likely to be influenced by what I can learn from experiences of others in my soul cell.

As I stand right now - and this is how I've felt for some time - I am not looking forward to returning. This might suggest that I am already spiritually committed to a further life. Actually I am intrigued to learn first-hand how humankind copes with the challenges of the coming years. But I might change my mind between now and then! Of course I would still be able to monitor the situation from 'over there' but that wouldn't be anywhere near the same as living here again....

I have always stressed it is taught that it is our choice, that there is no coercion. It's impossible to know how many times, by how many of us, we might return here but considering the world's unprecedentedly high population, it could be argued that there is presently a huge demand for physical lives. Unless there is a large percentage of individuals new to this world, it could also be concluded that conditions here are encouraging individuals - spirits if you wish - to revisit for the particular experiences which may presently be had.

Debate on reincarnation between Hannen Swaffer and Silver Birch.

We were discussing reincarnation during a lull in one sitting.

Suddenly, in the middle of the discussion, Silver Birch’s medium was entranced, and we found ourselves talking, not to an anti-reincarnation sitter, but to a pro-reincarnation spirit guide.

“I do not agree with you,” said the spirit to Swaffer, who had been loud in his denial of the theory.

“Tell me this,” said Swaffer. “Why am I, so far as I can see things, the direct descendent of my ancestry”

“Show me one of your ancestors who could have done the work you do,” countered the guide.

“I belong to a different period,” said Swaffer. “My grandmother was as dominant a character as I am.”

“You talk of the things of the brain. I mean the things of the spirit.”

“Well, then, tell me about my previous incarnations,” said Swaffer.

“No, it does not matter,” the guide replied.

“But you have reincarnated, whether you agree with it or not. Which one of your ancestors, do you think, gave you the power to be inspired?”

“One of my relatives, who died before he was twenty-eight, was one of the greatest poets who ever lived,” remarked Swaffer, referring to John Keats.

“Yes, I know,” the spirit said, “and that is carried forward in the bloodstream. But which one has swayed meetings?”

“He swayed people by thousands,” said the sitter. “When he wrote, ‘A thing of beauty is a joy for ever’, it went round the world.”

“Tell me which one of your ancestors was an orator?”

“That I cannot tell you,” admitted Swaffer.

“Tell me which one was born from among the low and the humble and walked with kings and princes.”

“That is largely because of my occupation,” said Swaffer. “They lived in the country and I live in London.”

“But they were born in the country and you were born in the country.”

“I have a young brother, twenty years younger than I am, who is one of the best journalists in Fleet Street,” went on Swaffer.

“Does he sway the thoughts of millions?” asked the guide.

“No, but he might.”

“But he does not.”

“No, but I did not when I was his age,” replied Swaffer.

“It is your physical body that comes from your physical parents,” said the guide.

“Your soul is of the Great Spirit. The qualities of the soul are those which you unfold for yourself. Your material body is determined by heredity, by environment, by the health of the parents. Those things affect the things of matter, but not the soul.”

“But, if there is reincarnation,” urged Swaffer, “why do not human beings improve at a greater rate? They
seem to me to improve as the conditions outside them improve.”

“Yes, but the conditions improve only as human beings improve,” said the guide.

“But they seem to improve at the same rate,” objected Swaffer.

“No, it is because the spirit improves that the conditions improve,” said the spirit.

“Yes, but the conditions react on the spirit.”

“You are putting it the wrong way round,” said the guide. “Improvement starts with the spirit and expresses itself in matter. It does not start with the expression in matter and then evolve the spirit.”

“That is an argument about spirit, not about reincarnation,” said Swaffer. “If we are constantly reborn,
why cannot we produce men greater than Homer, Shakespeare or Simpson? Why are not the types always improving? You only improve the types as you improve the conditions around the people.”

“What you call types refer to the things of matter. I refer to the quality of the spirit.”

“Is there today a man with a finer spirit than Socrates” asked Swaffer.

“Oh, yes.”

“Or Jesus of Nazareth?”

“No.”

“Or Joan of Arc?”

“Yes.”

“No, my logic rebels against reincarnation,” remarked Swaffer.

“I know,” said the guide, “and therefore you are right not to accept it.”

“I am taught to accept only those things which can be proved to me,” said Swaffer. “I accept you but I must not be expected to take from you things which rebel against my sense of logic.

“You have known me a long time,” said the guide. “Have I ever asked you or anyone to accept that which your reason rejects?”

“No,” admitted Swaffer. “Then I am told that when I evolve to a certain condition I shall be able to accept the theory of reincarnation naturally. Are the people who accept it more evolved than I am?”

“No,” replied the spirit. “Sometimes they do it because it gives them an opportunity for thinking that they are frustrated. There are some of the evolved souls who know about their past incarnations. But
you have reincarnated. So have I.”

“Why, when you passed on three thousand years ago, did you not reincarnate?” asked Swaffer.

“I had, before then,” said the guide. “I will tell you this so that you can understand. It is more important that your world should understand the laws of the spirit so that the things of the world of spirit can be brought to it. That is gradually happening. The next stage is that they will understand more about their past lives and their relationships to their present lives. It is not so important as the other but I tell you that it is so. If you say you do not agree with me, I love you just the same.”

“Red Cloud told me that I voluntarily reincarnated this time,” said Swaffer.

“Yes, that is so,” the guide replied.

“Why should I do it voluntarily, if it is a law?” asked Swaffer.

“There are many laws in operation,” said the spirit, and there are many people who do not know of the operation of the law until it is time for the law to operate through their lives.

“But why should I choose reincarnation if reincarnation is the law?” persisted Swaffcr.

“You had the choice of going on in the world of spirit or doing as I did, forego some of my evolution in order to help your world,” said the guide. “You chose to return. It was connected with all the troubles that you have seen in the past few years.”

“How much of that job do you think I have done “asked Swaffer.

“A great deal,” was the reply. “Although you have not yet reached the end. That is why you were always told of the work you had to do.”

Then the guide left, and the medium, coming out of trance, denied all the things his guide had said. For although the guide teaches reincarnation, his medium rejects the theory! The argument went on for an hour afterwards, with the medium arguing fiercely against the case his guide had built up.

A.W.Austen

Funny Z after all this time I found myself reading his book "Home Circle" and this very passage.

Admin wrote:Funny Z after all this time I found myself reading his book "Home Circle" and this very passage.

You were obviously inspired, Jim.

"Home Circle" was weitten by A.W. Austen - the last chapter is on reincarnation.

Yes very interestingly so Z thanks

Most of you know my views on reincarnation.

The older I get, the more I hope it isn't true. Going around once in this world is enough for me!

Jim

Left Behind wrote:The older I get, the more I hope it isn't true. Going around once in this world is enough for me!

Jim

Oh,but your next life may be happier.

The important thing is that we only get one life in these bodies, so it's best to make the most of the opportunity

Wes wrote:The important thing is that we only get one life in these bodies, so it's best to make the most of the opportunity

hear hear.

petal34 wrote:

Left Behind wrote:The older I get, the more I hope it isn't true. Going around once in this world is enough for me!

Jim

Oh,but your next life may be happier.

I sure hope so, Petal.

Jim

Left Behind wrote:The older I get, the more I hope it isn't true. Going around once in this world is enough for me!

Jim

Return isn't mandatory, Jim....

Wes wrote:The important thing is that we only get one life in these bodies, so it's best to make the most of the opportunity

In any particular body.....

mac wrote:

Left Behind wrote:The older I get, the more I hope it isn't true. Going around once in this world is enough for me!

Jim

Return isn't mandatory, Jim....

Give me one of those no-maintenance little cottages I hear about in spirit land, let me read, let me work at helping newcomers adjust: and there I'll stay!

Jim

Left Behind wrote:

mac wrote:

Left Behind wrote:The older I get, the more I hope it isn't true. Going around once in this world is enough for me!

Jim

Return isn't mandatory, Jim....

Give me one of those no-maintenance little cottages I hear about in spirit land, let me read, let me work at helping newcomers adjust: and there I'll stay!

Jim

And why not?

But who's to know how you'll feel (how any of us might feel) when you've been doing that for a time? Things may feel very different once we're 'over there'.

While we're here we may confidently reckon there's no way we'd want to return but when we've grown to better understand whatever it is we will grow to better understand, then our outlook could be very different from what it is now.

We'll see, eh?

You've got me there, Mac.

Jim

Unfortunately reincarnation has never been proved,Jim.
Pity.
Especially if we had a choice of planets to choose our next life.