Re: Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC

by Anniemillo1 Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:10 pm

I have also complained to both and have been encouraging others to do so. They seem to think that its not worthwhile to do so as the NEC will do what they want anyway. Certainly wouldn't want to be President of an organisation where the members felt little regard for you as a person and who feel betrayed at the underhanded goings on just to keep in power.

by notabigjump Mon Sep 09, 2024 8:18 pm

mac wrote:We've been told The Charities Commission has been informed of the shenanigans concerning fundraising and I'm guessing/hoping someone's informed Companies House in the correct way.

MAYBE that's all that will be needed for the complaint to be investigated by those bodies but if more complaints need to be made before the regulating bodies will take action then more members need to know how to go about it.

Some help with the best way to proceed would really help. Is there a guide Mac? Thanks

by mac Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:42 pm

Anniemillo1 wrote:I have also complained to both and have been encouraging others to do so. They seem to think that its not worthwhile to do so as the NEC will do what they want anyway.

One thing is for sure. If complaints are NOT made in the correct way we'd be relying on the regulators to find out for themselves and I don't see any likelihood of that happening. Plainly the NEC have taken actions which appear to contravene constitutional law and if so that contravention needs to be dealt with by the appropriate body. If their actions are in breach of rules/laws or whatever they might then be overturned - I don't know what happens but Jim has such specialist understanding/experience.

Certainly wouldn't want to be President of an organisation where the members felt little regard for you as a person and who feel betrayed at the underhanded goings on just to keep in power.

I would feel that way too but I wouldn't dream of doing what's been done. My view is that anyone with such a different approach might not give a toss what members felt while that she/he was making the changes.

I suppose it's just possible - however unlikely it seems - that what's being done is intended to benefit the Union but I'm not suggesting that's actually the case.

by mac Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:55 pm

notabigjump wrote:
mac wrote:We've been told The Charities Commission has been informed of the shenanigans concerning fundraising and I'm guessing/hoping someone's informed Companies House in the correct way.

MAYBE that's all that will be needed for the complaint to be investigated by those bodies but if more complaints need to be made before the regulating bodies will take action then more members need to know how to go about it.

Some help with the best way to proceed would really help. Is there a guide Mac? Thanks

I don't know if there's a guide but I did a search for a way to make a complaint. The process gave some general advice. I started to complete an online form but I don't know the details, only what's been talked about in this thread.

Jim is knowledgeable about Company Law and may know the way to make a complaint about that and also about fundraising.

by notabigjump Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:56 pm

Many thanks Mac. Good to know people can find it by search.

by mac Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:59 pm

notabigjump wrote:Many thanks Mac. Good to know people can find it by search.

It did take a few minutes of searching though.... From my browser's history: fundraising

by mac Mon Sep 09, 2024 10:08 pm

This looked promising initially: Unions but relates to Trades Unions - I didn't go any further.

by mac Mon Sep 09, 2024 10:15 pm

generally: make a complaint

by OnlyVisitingEarth Tue Sep 10, 2024 7:23 am

This is the first time I have commented but I have been following this from the start. To set your mind at rest Mac, there are many following this thread and I know both sides know all about it. It is being shared and commented a lot on Facebook. You are all doing a great job with your research and words. Because of you and others the truth is out there. People are not commenting or liking more because maybe they are not members of this site.Unfortunately those at the top have a strangle hold now on all the committees and members risk losing all their awards that they have paid a lot of money for and worked very hard and many years to get if they say too much.It's a very nasty business and like what was said before the tutor issue was the straw that broke the camels back, so again many thanks for this truthful enlightening thread, and as I said before there are many reading and commenting about this discussion across the airways around the world...thank you .

by mac Tue Sep 10, 2024 1:45 pm

Thank you for your generous words Smile

Thank you also for coming on to explain what's been happening elsewhere. I would join others' conversations if I knew where they were!

I am heartened to learn that this conversation - hosted on Jim's long-established Spiritualist website - is being viewed by individuals on both sides of a now-very-broad divide. A divide between regular, earnest Spiritualists and the SNU's NEC, its Directors. They and the body that is the SNU are supposed to represent and look out for their members and associates. In that they appear to have fallen short.

Those on the wrong side of that divide should perhaps be re-considering their personal positions, their responsibilities and their accountabilities. It may not be too late for them to "do the right thing" and in so doing perhaps minimise the risk of legal actions being taken against them individually and collectively if Company Law and/or SNU constitution rules have not been correctly followed.

I'm really sad to hear about the fear individuals have that they face losing their awards and accreditation if they complain. It's also sad if they fear they dare not post their concerns even anonymously here. No organisation worth its salt would ever dream of putting its loyal members in such a situation. Much is wrong with any such organisation and it needs to be put right if it's not already too late.

by mac Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:34 pm

my mistake

by OnlyVisitingEarth Tue Sep 10, 2024 3:36 pm

Mac. Unfortunately we members of the SNU mean nothing to those up high. I did not vote because I didn't like either of the candidates, I couldn't in all honesty put my cross next to either of them, having been a member through both of their reigns. I wonder if others have the same view, we turn a blind eye but keep our fingers crossed that something will happen to save our religion. Yes sounds like the cowards way out but after years of study and huge amounts of money and time for my awards I'm reluctant to hand them back. We are between a rock and a hard place and now it feels like we have in a way caused this all to happen.

Something should have been done years ago, when the rumblings started and now we are paying the price for our apathy. I will be going to the AGM to vote against as much as I can and I hope others will as well. I found most of the posts on Facebook by typing in SNU in the search box and clicking on it, not on the SNU in the drop down box. there are many interesting posts there, that was where I found the post about your thread and the website.

I saw a post about how many courses the president and her AFC coordinator are now doing at the college. The question raised was how can the president be able to organise and do that many courses while managing to fulfil her full time duties as the paid President when she is running courses at the college. I looked this morning and she is up to 12 courses next year.

It is shocking how she and her man in power are rampaging through not only the college halls but it's history and the lives of many of the top world tutors and ambassadors of spirit and promoters of our religion. I have also complained to the Charities Commission. I have not complained to the SNU head office, if for some awful reason this doesn't work I do not want my name on some hit list in an office. Terrible that I had to write that but it is what a lot of quiet members think as there are plenty of stories of members coming to grief if the comments on Facebook are true and as they all seem to follow the same pattern of grief I believe them. So I keep my fingers crossed and do my best to help to stop this rampage of power trips and ego's, as the religion and the college os many worked so hard for will be no more.

by mac Tue Sep 10, 2024 5:20 pm

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:Mac. Unfortunately we members of the SNU mean nothing to those up high. I did not vote because I didn't like either of the candidates, I couldn't in all honesty put my cross next to either of them, having been a member through both of their reigns. I wonder if others have the same view, we turn a blind eye but keep our fingers crossed that something will happen to save our religion. Yes sounds like the cowards way out but after years of study and huge amounts of money and time for my awards I'm reluctant to hand them back. We are between a rock and a hard place and now it feels like we have in a way caused this all to happen.

I agree with the way you see the situation and I understand and support the way you feel about your awards. It's absurd that something gained that way could be taken away in such a manner. It would be trashing the qualification you earned.

By contrast I DID vote but based on the argument I used earlier in this conversation I knew it was a wasted vote anyway. I had/have no liking for the previous President and had just started hearing about the one who followed him. Wasn't much of a choice....

Something should have been done years ago, when the rumblings started and now we are paying the price for our apathy.

I don't know what early signs might have been because the SNU has never been important or influential to my position as a Modern Spiritualist. Almost 40 years ago I knew it wasn't for me and only in my latter years have I felt any connection and even that is tenuous. But I HATE what's being reported and it puts me in mind of the high-handed approach by the overpaid, over-privileged, uncaring, aloof senior staff in the Post Office with their callous, uncaring, cynical treatment of the wrongfully accused postmasters and mistresses.

I will be going to the AGM to vote against as much as I can and I hope others will as well.

That's my intention too. I don't trust the chair to be my proxy.

I found most of the posts on Facebook by typing in SNU in the search box and clicking on it, not on the SNU in the drop down box. there are many interesting posts there, that was where I found the post about your thread and the website.

I'll take a look shortly. I checked earlier today but couldn't navigate to any discussions.

I saw a post about how many courses the president and her AFC coordinator are now doing at the college. The question raised was how can the president be able to organise and do that many courses while managing to fulfil her full time duties as the paid President when she is running courses at the college. I looked this morning and she is up to 12 courses next year.

It is shocking how she and her man in power are rampaging through not only the college halls but it's history and the lives of many of the top world tutors and ambassadors of spirit and promoters of our religion.

It's not something that affects me but I understand your own concerns.

I have also complained to the Charities Commission.

great!

I have not complained to the SNU head office, if for some awful reason this doesn't work I do not want my name on some hit list in an office.

I totally get that.

Terrible that I had to write that but it is what a lot of quiet members think as there are plenty of stories of members coming to grief if the comments on Facebook are true and as they all seem to follow the same pattern of grief I believe them. So I keep my fingers crossed and do my best to help to stop this rampage of power trips and ego's, as the religion and the college os many worked so hard for will be no more.

It's indeed terrible you feel that way but even more terrible you've been placed in such a position as have all the others afraid of the power of these individuals.

We can only keep our fingers crossed that there's now enough momentum to keep this sorry business moving ahead until there's a satisfactory outcome. If there IS a shake-out of the problem-makers though, goodness knows who will be left and prepared to "do the right thing".....

by Admin Wed Sep 11, 2024 12:44 am

Thank you "OnlyVisitingEarth" for your words about the forum. I also feel that the posts you exchanged with Mac help to add a better idea about how many other people feel over this difficult issue.

When an organisation which claims to be Spiritualist, abiding by our Seven Principles, reaches the stage where leaders use fear instead of reason, or openness, where they are hiding things behind misleading words and are clearly not sharing their intentions with its membership then problems are bound to follow on.

Now my grapevine suggests that the Elective Auditor has even agreed the Election Is Invalid, now if they feel that way they must surely be duty bound, if the President, the Vice President's and remaining NEC are determined to forge ahead, to report this to both Companies House and the Charities Commission. Also to blow the whistle to Members by any means possible.

If the President takes the Chair at the AGM and starts to use those excessive new standing orders to gag discussion, remove people, bring in non members to speak, can someone attending remotely make sure they record the events for the Charities Commission and Companies House. After all the AGM is a public event, so no code of silence can be delivered by the NEC.

I may be surprised if a few members of the Press do not attend; drawn to the smoke rising from recent events.

In their latest statement the NEC tried to suggest that people were bringing disrepute to the SNU, because of the Sun's Mystic Meg story. The reality, I feel, is the opposite. It is the actions, detailed in this topic of discussion, of the President and NEC, that may create a disreputable image for the SNU.

by Janhar Wed Sep 11, 2024 8:11 am

Yes Mac it is being followed.
I am not an SNU member but I am a former college student with a lot of interest. I re discovered this forum when I received an email from this site about these events. If I am watching this blog others will be too. I hope some of them have the means to pass on this advice where it is needed. Don’t think that none of the “silenced” SNU members are listening. Some of them will be and hopefully some NEC Directors also.

by Anniemillo1 Wed Sep 11, 2024 8:13 am

Would it make any difference for everyone to also send complaints to the SNU Complaints Committee because of the illegal actions taken by the NEC. It would be interesting to see if they found in favour of the members and then it was overturned by the NEC. They couldn't possibly not uphold the complaint because it is blatantly illegal.

by Janhar Wed Sep 11, 2024 8:27 am

mac wrote:
Admin wrote:
mac wrote:
Admin wrote:
mac wrote:The summaries of the current situation are comprehensive and illuminating leaving little to say other than ask a question - "What can members now do to try to get things back on an even keel?"

I don't know if the regulatory bodies would be more likely to step in to take action if members raised their concerns en masse but it couldn't do any harm. What is now needed is a way to make effective representation to the right people about the legal issues identified. A proforma letter to each of the regulating authorities that members could sign individually and send would be helpful.

A few hundred of them would show our concerns and the sooner the better because the AGM is imminent.

Very true Mac; as long as the Chairperson does not turn her opponents, and their votes, away at the door per her new standing orders.

I'm getting the impression you're implying it's a done-deal and she's got everything sewn up and in place to prevent a protest vote?

What I had been thinking about, though, are proforma complaint letters that members and others could send to the right places/persons at both The Charities Commission and Companies House to try to draw attention to the legal issues you've identified. The returned president has no way to prevent those being sent.

No Mac those Bye laws are to excessive, If anyone is denied entrance, thrown out for speaking, denied a vote then complain, shout out loud, to both the Charities Commission and the Companies House. I know I may have started some sort of overview, so NEC take note, and keep your leader in check. This is dangerous grounds, if you step outside of your constitutional powers; which you may well be on the verge of.

Rather than thinning out this multi-quote conversation I'm leaving everything in place in the hope that those carrying the responsibilities of SNU directors will be following the details and becoming increasingly unsettled by what they're reading. I'm also hoping there are many members reading and following the conversation even though they're not contributing to it.

I am not an SNU member but I am a former college student with a lot of interest. I re discovered this forum when Jim sent out his first email about these events. If I am watching this blog others will be too. I hope some of them have the means to pass on this advice where it is needed. Don’t think that none of the “silenced” SNU members are listening. Some of them will be and hopefully some Directors also.

by notabigjump Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:30 am

There is evidence of what I can only describe as a paranoia with the SNU facebook page moderators at present. Yesterday, a good friend posted a question. It was not offensive and asked for some clarification on the recent election. When he told me about it I looked it up and it was not visible. So I asked other people to check it out and it was still not visible. Yet he himself could see it as if it was published.

There is a setting if you manage a facebook page that you can hide a comment. When you do this, the poster can see their own post as it is published - but nobody else can.

It is concerning how an 'open' narrative is being controlled by this religious organisation. It was seen in Ireland which when it was realised, the people lost their respect for the Church. Ireland is no longer a theocracy. If such a strong way of life can be destroyed nationally by bad behavior, the SNU have no chance to silence people and keep a healthy membership.

by notabigjump Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:06 am

We have confirmation the SNU is currently being investigated by the UK Fund Raising Regulator, has official complaints lodged with the Charities Commissioner and Companies House, plus several complaints and employment disputes against them.

I make a serious plea to several good people on the NEC (there must be some).

According to law, you could be held personally liable as a company director for any wrongdoing. Not the SNU – but you personally. Your reputation and personal assets, could be at great risk if legal action is found against the SNU.

Please do the decent thing and stand up to this tyranny.

by mac Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:18 pm

Janhar wrote:Yes Mac it is being followed.
I am not an SNU member but I am a former college student with a lot of interest. I re discovered this forum when I received an email from this site about these events. If I am watching this blog others will be too. I hope some of them have the means to pass on this advice where it is needed. Don’t think that none of the “silenced” SNU members are listening. Some of them will be and hopefully some NEC Directors also.

I've mentioned that I'm hoping that not only SNU members - those who can vote individually - are viewing this conversation but also NEC members who may need to consider their positions if wrong doing is found by the regulating bodies already mentioned.

Thus far in this thread we've heard from barely a handful of individuals and as an ordinary website member here I don't have a clue how many unregistered viewers of the site there may be. Also thus far we've had nobody refuting any of the material posted in this thread so one might reasonably assume what's been said is essentially correct.

by mac Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:41 pm

notabigjump wrote:There is evidence of what I can only describe as a paranoia with the SNU facebook page moderators at present. Yesterday, a good friend posted a question. It was not offensive and asked for some clarification on the recent election. When he told me about it I looked it up and it was not visible. So I asked other people to check it out and it was still not visible. Yet he himself could see it as if it was published.

There is a setting if you manage a facebook page that you can hide a comment. When you do this, the poster can see their own post as it is published - but nobody else can.

It's one feature of Facebook special-interest page that anything posted can be removed or made not visible. That's a good thing to avoid nutters trashing 'proper' material there but it also results in any contribution being able to be removed by moderators. They might, of course, do it for personal reasons and/or to protect self-interests.

It is concerning how an 'open' narrative is being controlled by this religious organisation. It was seen before in Ireland which when it was realised, the people lost their respect for the Church. Ireland is no longer a theocracy. If such a strong way of life can be destroyed nationally by bad behavior, the SNU have no chance to silence people and keep a healthy membership.

I do not know the situation elsewhere and I don't know what the SNU directors are ultimately intending for the Union. But it would be a mistake to expect the Facebook platform to automatically allow an open narrative. Each special-interest page is created for a specific purpose or purposes by their creator and fairness or openness are not necessarily found on them. It's naiive to expect the one created specially for the SNU's needs is going to provide a platform for free-speech the way this website provides. It's a tool for the SNU and not intended as a discussion forum for its members.

I view organisations' Facebook pages as media that serve the organisations but not necessarily their members.

It's a while since I made a comment on the SNU I.M. page and I've avoided doing so since becoming involved in this conversation.

by mac Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:54 pm

notabigjump wrote:We have confirmation the SNU is currently being investigated by the UK Fund Raising Regulator, has official complaints lodged with the Charities Commissioner and Companies House, plus several complaints and employment disputes against them.

That is brilliant news!

I make a serious plea to several good people on the NEC (there must be some).

According to law, you could be held personally liable as a company director for any wrongdoing. Not the SNU – but you personally. Your reputation and personal assets, could be at great risk if legal action is found against the SNU.

Please do the decent thing and stand up to this tyranny.

absolutely!

I feel sure at least some will be aware, if not following, what's been said in this thread. Unless those in the positions of being directors are certain that they have complied with what's demanded of them as a director in a business, they should now be carefully reviewing their personal positions. As you have made clear, personal assets are at risk if wrong doing is proven. Loss of one's reputation can't be quantified but hard cash can.

As you have emphasised here and as Jim - an expert and experienced in Company Law - has already emphasised himself, directors are personally liable for contraventions/omissions in the operation of the body/business where they are named directors.

by mac Wed Sep 11, 2024 3:22 pm

Admin wrote:

When an organisation which claims to be Spiritualist, abiding by our Seven Principles, reaches the stage where leaders use fear instead of reason, or openness, where they are hiding things behind misleading words and are clearly not sharing their intentions with its membership.

The movement, philosophy and indeed religion of Spiritualism IS a spiritual organisation and we should not allow its reputation and its core values to be trashed by a few individuals' actions.

Now my grapevine suggests that the Elective Auditor has even agreed the Election Is Invalid, now if they feel that way they must surely be duty bound, if the President, the Vice President's and remaining NEC are determined to forge ahead, to report this to both Companies House and the Charities Commission. Also to blow the whistle to Members by any means possible.

Until action has been taken by the regulating bodies the officers of the SNU can do whatever they choose. IF the election of President and others is ultimately declared invalid then all that follows in the AGM may also be found not valid. There will be no point in anyone attending the AGM in order to try to prevent the intended changes because they can not be enacted if the AGM is not properly constituted. But if no formal action is taken then everything proposed will be pushed through anyway - as I see things.

If the President takes the Chair at the AGM and starts to use those excessive new standing orders to gag discussion, remove people, bring in non members to speak, can someone attending remotely make sure they record the events for the Charities Commission and Companies House. After all the AGM is a public event, so no code of silence can be delivered by the NEC.

Video recording of all the business would be ideal but not possible unless the chairperson specifically allows it - turkey voting for Christmas? If the President takes the chair any action she takes will only be legal if investigation does not lead to formal action and disbarring. Without such action we know which way events are likely to go....

I may be surprised if a few members of the Press do not attend; drawn to the smoke rising from recent events.

hmmmm..... Does it have all that much interest for the press, one might ask? I'd love to find out that it does!

In their latest statement the NEC tried to suggest that people were bringing disrepute to the SNU, because of the Sun's Mystic Meg story. The reality, I feel, is the opposite. It is the actions, detailed in this topic of discussion, of the President and NEC, that may create a disreputable image for the SNU.

I think that's already the case, Jim, especially for those who know and care about the Union. The whole business beginning with the 20 tutors situation stinks.

by mac Wed Sep 11, 2024 3:36 pm

A couple of weeks ago I knew nothing about all this shambles. I've been reflecting over what I have learned I am left wondering if the President and anyone siding with her were simply crass or cunning and manipulative......

Surely - one would argue - nobody so well positioned in the Union could be so stupid as to think nothing would be said, that no objections to what had happened and was going to happen would be raised.

Yet it does APPEAR crass that with all the planned changes to the SNU's operation in the pipeline the bods in power would cause an issue over 20 tutors. Maybe it WAS crass that the bods in power just didn't see all this coming - so much for being psychics/sensitives or mediums!

Maybe they didn't sit and contemplate/meditate about what was going to be made to happen.

Maybe they didn't even realise the magnitude of what was planned?

Stupid as well as devious? Rolling Eyes

by mac Wed Sep 11, 2024 3:38 pm

Anniemillo1 wrote:Would it make any difference for everyone to also send complaints to the SNU Complaints Committee because of the illegal actions taken by the NEC. It would be interesting to see if they found in favour of the members and then it was overturned by the NEC. They couldn't possibly not uphold the complaint because it is blatantly illegal.

Interesting questions/points but essentially academic now we're so far down the road.....

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