Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

obiwan wrote:

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:

The points I am making are these:

1 Beating a child is a criminal offence. Get the police involved. Telling people you're  producing phenomena and taking money when you're not is fraud. Get the police involved. You're not the Police. Your analogy with child beating is a poor one because in that case the authorities would get involved whether or not the child backed it up or whether or not there was sufficient evidence to convinct. It's an unnecessary appeal to emotion imho.

2 I am not saying you're wrong to publicise your experiences. There is a difference between doing that - which you have done very well, and turning it into a campaign. You're perectly within your rights to do both. I think after a while it may look to some like you have a personal grudge (which I can understand). This may weaken your argument.

3 For what it's worth, as a dispassionate observer, I'd say there enough evidence out there now for a reasonable person to see what KM is up to. If people choose to ignore that, it's their problem. You may of course continue to do what you're doing, and I am not saying that's wrong, I am just asking what is your objective?

Hi obiwan,

the comparison was maybe not so good, but i didn´t have a better one in the short time. It was not an appeal to emotion. And it was something missing with the example: the father invited you in the beginning, to check and prove, that he´s doing well with his son.
KM shouts at MN, gets personal, behaves very rudely. No opinion about that behaviour? Only claim a vendetta is going on? We must live with this then.

Yes, it makes a difference, if you go to the police because of a beaten child. But how many abuses are not counted and go on day by day, even the police is involved? The hungarian police just made a video, that it´s allegedly the ladies own fault when they get raped, when they dressed beautifully. It was said in the spirit of this, not word by word, but fortunatly many people protest against it. The police can´t help there, obiwan. We must take our own responsibility.
I don´t see, that KM is stopped with his actions and people realize or maybe even want to realize, what´s going on. For sure, i could be wrong with my impression here.   But furthermore i have the feeling, that most people doesn´t want to see what´s going on, except a few ones. Or why is he still booked and has his followers? Has anything changed yet? But it´s not different with any other guru´s, so why i´m wondering!

You say you can understand me (really?) and in the same time you asking me what my objective is. I don´t understand that.
Not only that i and all my guests had been cheated, additionally i had to read lies spread by KM about me publicly. That is a double hit. And when i defend, you get confronted with the allegation, you want to have a vendetta. That´s the triple hit to the body. It´s a feeling of helplessness, because most people obviously want to talk about the alleged "highways", if you know what i mean.

Neilos wrote:IDLF's, MN makes reference to various photo sequences in the report on PM4u. Is it possible to see these and where could I look?

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:

The points I am making are these:

1 Beating a child is a criminal offence. Get the police involved. Telling people you're  producing phenomena and taking money when you're not is fraud. Get the police involved. You're not the Police. Your analogy with child beating is a poor one because in that case the authorities would get involved whether or not the child backed it up or whether or not there was sufficient evidence to convinct. It's an unnecessary appeal to emotion imho.

2 I am not saying you're wrong to publicise your experiences. There is a difference between doing that - which you have done very well, and turning it into a campaign. You're perectly within your rights to do both. I think after a while it may look to some like you have a personal grudge (which I can understand). This may weaken your argument.

3 For what it's worth, as a dispassionate observer, I'd say there enough evidence out there now for a reasonable person to see what KM is up to. If people choose to ignore that, it's their problem. You may of course continue to do what you're doing, and I am not saying that's wrong, I am just asking what is your objective?

Hi obiwan,

the comparison was maybe not so good, but i didn´t have a better one in the short time. It was not an appeal to emotion. And it was something missing with the example: the father invited you in the beginning, to check and prove, that he´s doing well with his son.
KM shouts at MN, gets personal, behaves very rudely. No opinion about that behaviour? Only claim a vendetta is going on? We must live with this then.

Yes, it makes a difference, if you go to the police because of a beaten child. But how many abuses are not counted and go on day by day, even the police is involved? The hungarian police just made a video, that it´s allegedly the ladies own fault when they get raped, when they dressed beautifully. It was said in the spirit of this, not word by word, but fortunatly many people protest against it. The police can´t help there, obiwan. We must take our own responsibility.
I don´t see, that KM is stopped with his actions and people realize or maybe even want to realize, what´s going on. For sure, i could be wrong with my impression here.   But furthermore i have the feeling, that most people doesn´t want to see what´s going on, except a few ones. Or why is he still booked and has his followers? Has anything changed yet? But it´s not different with any other guru´s, so why i´m wondering!

You say you can understand me (really?) and in the same time you asking me what my objective is. I don´t understand that.
Not only that i and all my guests had been cheated, additionally i had to read lies spread by KM about me publicly. That is a double hit. And when i defend, you get confronted with the allegation, you want to have a vendetta. That´s the triple hit to the body. It´s a feeling of helplessness, because most people obviously want to talk about the alleged "highways", if you know what i mean.

Neilos wrote:?

Neilos wrote:Ok thanks. Notice that MN's report has been deleted off PM4U but Kai's recent one regarding the red lights remain. Selective censorship... very sad indeed.

Neilos wrote:Wouldn't go that far but it is not good. I have looked at Keene's book despite what I said and it is only good for a good for a laugh. Bears no resemblance to anything I have experienced in a séance room apart from one medium lol!

obiwan wrote:

I understand you're angry with him. I don't understand what you are trying to achieve though.

If you are trying to publicise KM's fakery you have done that very well. If you are trying to stop him doing it, that's a matter for the authorities if it's a criminal offence. Otherwise you are campaigning against him. Vendetta is defined as: a prolonged bitter quarrel with or campaign against someone.

Now I am not saying this is wrong, I am merely pointing out that when KM says you've made your point, why not just move on, he has a point. Your message is now well-publicised. It's very clear.

You are perfectly within your rights to campaign against him but don't expect everyone else to share the extent of your concern.

The world is full of frauds. If he is dangling bit of 'whatever' and claiming it is a message from beyond then that's clearly wrong. It isn't however the crime of the century IMHO. He certainly looks from the reports like a pathetic fraud. His reaction to your accusations is to make claims about you - that's a typical tactic adopted in this type of row.

If people want to go to see him they will simply disregard your arguments. Anyone researching the guy will already see a lot of good material from Nahm, Braud and yourself. How much more energy is it worth expending on something like this? Of course that is a matter for your personal judgement but as an outsider I can't see that much more effort by you will produce more than it has already.

dont-like-frauds wrote:

Thank you for your words, obiwan.
Honestly: The sooner i´m out of that, the better it is!
You are so right!!!

Neilos wrote:Don't think it is luck DLF's. Why don't you set up your own circle and put your experiences to good use.

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:

I understand you're angry with him. I don't understand what you are trying to achieve though.

If you are trying to publicise KM's fakery you have done that very well. If you are trying to stop him doing it, that's a matter for the authorities if it's a criminal offence. Otherwise you are campaigning against him. Vendetta is defined as: a prolonged bitter quarrel with or campaign against someone.

Now I am not saying this is wrong, I am merely pointing out that when KM says you've made your point, why not just move on, he has a point. Your message is now well-publicised. It's very clear.

You are perfectly within your rights to campaign against him but don't expect everyone else to share the extent of your concern.

The world is full of frauds. If he is dangling bit of 'whatever' and claiming it is a message from beyond then that's clearly wrong. It isn't however the crime of the century IMHO. He certainly looks from the reports like a pathetic fraud. His reaction to your accusations is to make claims about you - that's a typical tactic adopted in this type of row.

If people want to go to see him they will simply disregard your arguments. Anyone researching the guy will already see a lot of good material from Nahm, Braud and yourself. How much more energy is it worth expending on something like this? Of course that is a matter for your personal judgement but as an outsider I can't see that much more effort by you will produce more than it has already.

Thank you for your words, obiwan.
Honestly: The sooner i´m out of that, the better it is!
You are so right!!!

Neilos wrote:Ok thanks. Notice that MN's report has been deleted off PM4U but Kai's recent one regarding the red lights remain. Selective censorship... very sad indeed.

obiwan wrote:

Neilos wrote:Ok thanks. Notice that MN's report has been deleted off PM4U but Kai's recent one regarding the red lights remain. Selective censorship... very sad indeed.

That tells you all you need to know about that website iMHO.

The owner might call it 'moderation'....  

I'll give him his due - he's consistent.  He consistently removes anything contentious, anything that's a challenge, anything that's not supportive of 'his' mediums.  Anything that calls it into question and seeks to discuss the circumstances.  Things that don't meet his personal criteria.

mac wrote:

obiwan wrote:

Neilos wrote:Ok thanks. Notice that MN's report has been deleted off PM4U but Kai's recent one regarding the red lights remain. Selective censorship... very sad indeed.

That tells you all you need to know about that website iMHO.

The owner might call it 'moderation'....  

I'll give him his due - he's consistent.  He consistently removes anything contentious, anything that's a challenge, anything that's not supportive of 'his' mediums.  Anything that calls it into question and seeks to discuss the circumstances.  Things that don't meet his personal criteria.

Lis wrote:First, let me thank Bravo for posting the remarks made by Dr Nahm on PM4U and the response made by KM that it seems have now been deleted from that forum.

I have read the various responses here with interest. With regard to Obiwan's comments I must admit having a background in law and social welfare I am generally inclined to support the view that when someone is genuinely believed to be committing fraud the matter should be taken to the police. On the other hand, as a Spiritualist, and based on past experience, I am all too aware of how the police deal with, or more accurately, decline to deal with such complaints, unless the complainant has certain and substantial evidence that fraud has taken place.

While there is much circumstantial evidence to support the reasonable belief that KM has been cheating, at the very least, on some occasions, and possibly much of the time, as yet no one has actually caught him in the act of fraud, This makes it very difficult therefore for a complainant to be taken seriously, especially when the general attitude of the police to all psychic phenomena is that it is ALL fraud, all nonsense, and those who take it seriously are all gullible and credulous idiots.

The real issue in regard to fraud is whether KM is carrying out these acts of deception for personal and financial gain. And it seems he certainly is. My understanding is that in the UK the current legislation, introduced several years ago now, is not dissimilar to that current in the EEC. Perhaps those who are concerned about the activities of KM should be looking at the provisions of current legislation to see if there is an avenue that can be pursued in that direction.

Equally, I support the current approach of making public matters of concern regarding Kai Muegge. While Dr. Nahm has made his opinions "public" in the sense he has written a report published in a particular journal, I do not see that his report has had a wide circulation sufficient to suggest that his information regarding KM has become general public knowledge.

Certainly, his attempt to make his report known to those who subscribe to PM4U, a forum specifically dedicated to those people interested in physical mediumship, and therefore the very people who need to be made aware of the concerns, has been defeated by the position the owner of PM4U has taken by deleting all reference to it.

In Dr. Nahm again trying to express his concerns and point out the dishonesty in Muegge's blog I see him merely attempting to correct a distortion of the truth and to again attempt to alert physical mediumship adherents to the potential dangers of continued belief in the activities of KM. The response on the part of the PM4U forum owner is once more to censure the truth and prevent people from having information on which they could make their own assessment. They might have continued to believe in KM despite the evidence, they may not.

But Robin Foy is not prepared to let people make up their own minds about the matters of concern. He is making up their minds for them by his actions. His conduct does him no credit at all.

This forum has attempted to redress the balance by re-posting material in the hope that those on PM4U and elsewhere can read what has been written and be in a position to form an opinion, independent of Foy. Again, some may decide KM is not worth spending their time and money on, others may continue to believe in him. So be it. But, if in making these matters public we prevent just one person from being duped it will be a good thing to have done.

I, personally, do not see that in discussing this subject, nor indeed, 'don't like frauds' posts, as constituting a vendetta. If the discussion can be so defined then I would suggest it is, as a vendetta, a righteous one, for it is an attempt to reveal, to expose, the fraudulent activities of a person who is taking people's money under false pretences. Moreover, it is an attempt to prevent once again Spiritualism and mediumship from being associated with dishonesty and disreputable conmen (or women) who would hijack the phenomena for their own ends.

Lis wrote:No doubt you are right, Obiwan, that pursuing the topic directly on such as PM4U where it is not welcomed may give rise to claims of vendetta, personal attack, or as KM suggests, "character assassination," however, when that forum is the place that those interested in PM gather, surely it is the very place that such concerns should be aired. Allowing both sides of the argument -not censuring one, while allowing the other to speak with impunity.

While I acknowledge Robin Foy's 'right' to run his forum as he pleases, it seems a terrible shame that he will not allow any real discussion of issues. To repeatedly delete posts and often ban the posters sends a message that only he is able to judge what is true and what is false, and only his opinion, and the comments of those he has deemed genuine may be presented to the public are worthy of discussion, and only if that discussion at no point questions the legitimacy of pm.

Amongst the genuine, there is a long history of fraud in physical mediumship. Those who are so passionate about pm should be the first to stand up and speak out about the frauds so as to ensure the genuine is not tarred with the same brush.

Perhaps it is time that those who proclaim they are genuine pm's and who are well aware of what is going on with such as KM and WC, indeed, quietly refuse to work in any venue where KM and WC are welcomed, should stand up for what they believe in and speak out to the physical mediumship community to let them know what they know.

So please consider becoming a community activist. Your silence only legitimatizes his attack on one of our few heroes. Tom Butler wrote:

obiwan wrote:

Lis wrote:No doubt you are right, Obiwan, that pursuing the topic directly on such as PM4U where it is not welcomed may give rise to claims of vendetta, personal attack, or as KM suggests, "character assassination," however, when that forum is the place that those interested in PM gather, surely it is the very place that such concerns should be aired. Allowing both sides of the argument -not censuring one, while allowing the other to speak with impunity.

While I acknowledge Robin Foy's 'right' to run his forum as he pleases, it seems a terrible shame that he will not allow any real discussion of issues. To repeatedly delete posts and often ban the posters sends a message that only he is able to judge what is true and what is false, and only his opinion, and the comments of those he has deemed genuine may be presented to the public are worthy of discussion, and only if that discussion at no point questions the legitimacy of pm.

Amongst the genuine, there is a long history of fraud in physical mediumship. Those who are so passionate about pm should be the first to stand up and speak out about the frauds so as to ensure the genuine is not tarred with the same brush.

Perhaps it is time that those who proclaim they are genuine pm's and who are well aware of what is going on with such as KM and WC, indeed, quietly refuse to work in any venue where KM and WC are welcomed, should stand up for what they believe in and speak out to the physical mediumship community to let them know what they know.

Well by their fruits shall ye know them eh? This is a good place to discuss the issues. Filtering discussion as appears to be the case on PM4U says it all really IMHO.

It would help if there were one or two good examples of physical mediums of the calibre of Alex Harris, or Leslie Flint then people would have something to compare KM/WC et al with.