Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

by Admin Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:16 am

I suppose one of my concerns is where Prof Stephen Braude is actually going with the next series of investigations he seems to have reached an agreement with Kai Muegge to carry out.

This interview here shows he has strengthened his "mixed mediumship" viewhttp://elfvinginstitute.org/2014/12/07/stephen-braude-exclusively-on-elfvinginstitutes-blog/ . The real question now is his own motive, is it to rebuild a reputation partially damaged by the discoveries of others, or is he really interested to give Kai another chance despite the existing evidence. It will be very important to be certain that the controls he uses are valid, thorough and complete.

Realistically it would be good if this series involved another senior researcher of similar or greater substance especially as Braude seems to have established a rapport with the subject.

I am not sure that, despite the substantially stronger, more realistic, phenomena Eusapia Palladino produced, both fraudulently and "apparently genuinely", in comparison to Muegge, any of the truly great researcher who worked with her gained much in the way of Kudos from their efforts. So Prof Braude may be venturing down a path that leads him to a point where he may be convinced but the research and broader community may feel his evidence is either not valid or does not change the underlying issues raised by Muegge's past action.

Jim

by Admin Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:18 am

mac wrote:All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship. It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

True Mac even the continuing research will all be about phenomena not proving survival. Séances like this are a waste of time for any Spiritualist.

by Neilos Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:32 am

Glad I am psting here and not PM4U honest debate beats censorship anyday. RB should hang is head in shame.

by obiwan Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:49 am

I agree Mac. The fundamental problem, it seems to me, is the dearth of evidential mediumship.

by mac Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:53 am

obiwan wrote:I agree Mac. The fundamental problem, it seems to me, is the dearth of evidential mediumship.

Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose..... Sad

by mac Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:57 am

Admin wrote:
mac wrote:All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship. It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

True Mac even the continuing research will all be about phenomena not proving survival. Séances like this are a waste of time for any Spiritualist.

I suppose the reality may be that those attending do it more to experience the phenomena with any evidential material as a bonus. And perhaps those who go for those reasons may not see, or describe themselves as, Spiritualists anyway. Question

by obiwan Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:23 am

mac wrote:
Admin wrote:
mac wrote:All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship. It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

True Mac even the continuing research will all be about phenomena not proving survival. Séances like this are a waste of time for any Spiritualist.

I suppose the reality may be that those attending do it more to experience the phenomena with any evidential material as a bonus. And perhaps those who go for those reasons may not see, or describe themselves as, Spiritualists anyway.

It's amazng what can be achieved with yoghurt cartons and two yards of knicker elastic as any fan of Blue Peter will tell you.

by mac Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:41 pm

When I wore new to all this spooks stuff, but larnin' pretty-damn-quick, I had a letter published in PN (those were the days when you wrote letters on paper with a pen!) which attracted the attention of a certain member who's not seen often now on this website.

I was roundly told off for having the temerity to suggest that some NAS circles/groups sitting for physical phenomena sometimes appeared (based on what was written) to be more impressed by the phenomena than they were by achieving reliable, evidential mediumship.

Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.....

Wink

by Neilos Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:00 pm

I have gone through the 'phenomenon junkie' phase and can now see it is pointless without evidence of survival. I have lost interest in public séances and have had better experiences and validation via sitting in various home circles.

by Jane Lyzell Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:23 pm

dont-like-frauds- I certainly understand your need to have like-minded people to vent this with Kaj - It was the same for me with Anders Åkesson, 2010 - You feel betrayed and nearly raped. In your own faith in them.It is a great sadness and a large hole in the heart to know that they continue to deceive other people. No one wants to be bothered or even hear warnings. - It turned instead back on yourself - then other people think you should be divine and forgive- It is Unable to forgive - it's a completely ruined abuse.

We need voices that reveal them - t physical mediumship has become a phenomenon circus Sad

Robin Foy - delited al my post in PM4U and myself aswell - regarding him he is deceiver himself and defending others who cheat - it's disgusting- that make you want to puke.

I think the only thing we can do is to enlighten others as we can about them. Right now it is some sort of contest to see who is the best physical medium and Robins Forum encourages it.Many start their physical medium nity development from totally wrong reasons - they can not even the history of the subject. Can not be anything than shit then.

Think it is a shame for physical mediumship and spiritualism what is happening now - materialism has its grip on them.

It's a tough experience, we have to bear with us - but perhaps the best to never have to go that route.We who have experienced these fraudsters will never be deceived again and that experience gives us the experience to build up the genuine physical mediumship again zorro

by mac Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:31 pm

I understand that Jane has been personally impacted by events that have undermined her faith in certain individuals. Isn't that often the way in life, though, and not found only in the field of phenomenalism?

And much as she - or we - may disapprove of the way that PM4U is moderated and run it's not our website, we don't pay the bills and we don't get to say how it's run and how its owner should or shouldn't behave. There's nothing unusual in that - all websites belongs to their owners and not to their users/members. But please don't think that means I'm supporting what's written on PM4U or why material is removed.

If there's any saving grace, however, it's that much of what is written about has little to do with Modern Spiritualism, its philosophy or teachings. I am pleased that's the case and the reality is that few of its members appear to be much interested in Spiritualism anyway. The few who write there in support of its principles, and argue against phenomenalism masquerading as mediumship, often see their contributions removed and that seems childish to me but I don't get to choose as I don't pay the bills.

He who pays the piper gets to pick the tune....

by Jane Lyzell Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:12 pm

mac wrote:I understand that Jane has been personally impacted by events that have undermined her faith in certain individuals. Isn't that often the way in life, though, and not found only in the field of phenomenalism?

And much as she - or we - may disapprove of the way that PM4U is moderated and run it's not our website, we don't pay the bills and we don't get to say how it's run and how its owner should or shouldn't behave. There's nothing unusual in that - all websites belongs to their owners and not to their users/members. But please don't think that means I'm supporting what's written on PM4U or why material is removed.

If there's any saving grace, however, it's that much of what is written about has little to do with Modern Spiritualism, its philosophy or teachings. I am pleased that's the case and the reality is that few of its members appear to be much interested in Spiritualism anyway. The few who write there in support of its principles, and argue against phenomenalism masquerading as mediumship, often see their contributions removed and that seems childish to me but I don't get to choose as I don't pay the bills.

He who pays the piper gets to pick the tune....

that is the problem how I see it whit PM4U

by mac Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:41 pm

The PM4U website isn't a problem provided one realises it's heavily-protective towards phenomenalist practitioners and clumsily moderated to avoid searching questions about anyone, even when they perhaps deserve it.

But no-one is forced to be a member if they don't like how the website operates and traditional physical mediumship, or any other flavour, may be discussed here and elsewhere. Of course certain so-called physical mediums will love the protected environment provided on PM4U and it's their prerogative not to engage elsewhere where they expect probing questions.

We may feel completely rational and justified in how we feel about such websites but that's not going to influence anyone who doesn't share similar values.

by Jane Lyzell Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:49 pm

mac wrote:The PM4U website isn't a problem provided one realises it's heavily-protective towards phenomenalist practitioners and clumsily moderated to avoid searching questions about anyone, even when they perhaps deserve it.

But no-one is forced to be a member if they don't like how the website operates and traditional physical mediumship, or any other flavour, may be discussed here and elsewhere. Of course certain so-called physical mediums will love the protected environment provided on PM4U and it's their prerogative not to engage elsewhere where they expect probing questions.

We may feel completely rational and justified in how we feel about such websites but that's not going to influence anyone who doesn't share similar values.

the problem is that they see them selfs as leding on physical mediumship on PM4U - and they all in there think they know the best- it is irritating bounce

especially when froud medium are protected

by mac Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:14 am

You have as little influence in the matter, Jane, as the rest of us but is there any point in becoming frustrated by it all?

Those who follow the work of the phenomenalists do so by choice, presumably impressed by what they experience. If they're persuaded what they see is genuine then your words will fall on deaf ears and, changing the metaphor, there are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

It's pretty plain by now that the owner of website PM4U will accept nothing that challenges what the physical phenomena followers believe in and will remove from its website anything that even tries to challenge it.

As for being leaders on the subject of physical mediumship, well in their minds it's what they believe and you won't ever change the beliefs of most of them I'd guess. I don't much care what their beliefs may be, I don't much care what phenomena they pay to experience - they have the right to choose their paths just as we all do.

Maybe I'm growing mellow in my old age because nowadays I don't feel any frustration about such events. Very Happy

by Neilos Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:05 am

I agree Mac, to be able to discern between what constitutes good physical mediumship and bad, I feel it helps to have a range of experiences. Personally feel that the home circle is the best place to get evidential physical mediumship and is by far more meaningful than public demonstrations.

by Admin Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:12 am

Comments, personally I think this is about as stupid as anything I have seen, only a True Believer could buy it. http://felixcircle.blogspot.com.au/

by Jane Lyzell Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:40 pm

You have the right mac - but I like justice - and defend the mourners who are beeing deceived - it's not right. I questioned Robin Foy school reporting it was part photos that I questioned, among others, the photo on his so-called guid and faces - where I could clearly see it was circle participants' faces - for the study circle members so you could see it-Robin claimed it was the spirit faces.

I was thrown out immediately.

by Jane Lyzell Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:42 pm

Admin wrote:Comments, personally I think this is about as stupid as anything I have seen, only a True Believer could buy it. http://felixcircle.blogspot.com.au/

totely agree - desperately trying to prove he is genuine

by Neilos Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:03 pm

It does seem that way...

by obiwan Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:20 pm

Oh ye of little faith lmao

by mac Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:22 pm

Jane Lyzell wrote:You have the right mac - but I like justice - and defend the mourners who are beeing deceived - it's not right. I questioned Robin Foy school reporting it was part photos that I questioned, among others, the photo on his so-called guid and faces - where I could clearly see it was circle participants' faces - for the study circle members so you could see it-Robin claimed it was the spirit faces.

I was thrown out immediately.

We have two issues here, Jane. The bereaved naturally want to know that their loved ones live on and if all the phenomena (genuine or fraudulent) give them reassurance of that then something helpful has happened - even if it's a case of 'right for the wrong reason'.

If, though, the phenomena are touted as being caused by spirit involvement - but without any evidence of survival and identity - then it's not mediumship at all. It's phenomenalism. Those experiencing phenomena have to decide for themselves whether they have received what they paid for. We can do little other than try to help anyone who comes seeking better understanding - before or after a sitting.

But no amount of reasoned argument or challenge on a dedicated website is likely to change the approach of those whose lives revolve around producing, or experiencing, phenomena.

by obiwan Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:00 pm

mac wrote:
Jane Lyzell wrote:You have the right mac - but I like justice - and defend the mourners who are beeing deceived - it's not right. I questioned Robin Foy school reporting it was part photos that I questioned, among others, the photo on his so-called guid and faces - where I could clearly see it was circle participants' faces - for the study circle members so you could see it-Robin claimed it was the spirit faces.

I was thrown out immediately.

We have two issues here, Jane. The bereaved naturally want to know that their loved ones live on and if all the phenomena (genuine or fraudulent) give them reassurance of that then something helpful has happened - even if it's a case of 'right for the wrong reason'.

If, though, the phenomena are touted as being caused by spirit involvement - but without any evidence of survival and identity - then it's not mediumship at all. It's phenomenalism. Those experiencing phenomena have to decide for themselves whether they have received what they paid for. We can do little other than try to help anyone who comes seeking better understanding - before or after a sitting.

But no amount of reasoned argument or challenge on a dedicated website is likely to change the approach of those whose lives revolve around producing, or experiencing, phenomena.

Hear hear!

by Neilos Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:36 pm

It is disappointing that there is a lack of honest debate on the site and whole threads are deleted if the content doesn't fit in with the opinion of one person. I will not post there again due to the recent deleted threads.

by mac Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:51 pm

Neilos wrote:It is disappointing that there is a lack of honest debate on the site and whole threads are deleted if the content doesn't fit in with the opinion of one person. I will not post there again due to the recent deleted threads.

Disappointing but par for that particular course... I only post occasionally in the (vain) hope it may stimulate thought - little chance of discussion or debate.

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