A very heavy heart about all this

swallow hard because we had to pay £40 each for Kai's seance! Unless he's claiming expenses only and the centre keeps it all? - but I do know from another who went to a seance a while ago that they had to pay as well.

How many there truth?

KatyKing wrote:How many there truth?

I didn't count but I'd say around 30

Well let's hope Kai is declaring his UK earnings for tax purposes.
We must find out.

KatyKing wrote:Well let's hope Kai is declaring his UK earnings for tax purposes.
We must find out.

We'll leave ito you to find out and then you can notify the appropriate authorities.

A word of warning though - you might open a can of worms for all mediums who don't declare their earnings.

Aye. That'd make one popular for sure. Wise words George.
Those that were fleeced might think about it though.
Local Authority Consumer Protection's their best bet. Those guys are pretty good certainly round these parts.
There was a scam going amongst the Indian community here a year or two ago. Serial payments to remove curses that sort of thing. CP busted the scammers who then fled the country whilst on bail.

I mentioned hearing similar stories elsewhere, if you follow this thread and go down teh page you will find some comments made by a man calling himself notallfrauds. If his words are correct he hosted both the Felix Group and David Thompson in Germany.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74282104

I like the name he chose because they are not all frauds, however everyone who may consider fraud must realise the widespread damage they do not only to physical mediumship and to Spiritualism. I know the argument of supporters is you should never say bad things about any medium because it brings that discredit too. However, I believe in teh tradition odf Spiritualism that it always tackled and dealt with such issues.

In regard to the cost issues I have thought about and rejected informing the authorities. My main interest in drawing attention to the large sums involved is that the supporters keep insisting these mediums make no money out of there work. However, its quite possible a number of visa rules are being broken routinely particulary in regard to the USA and requirements for people to earn money. If raised this could have quite an impact on a broad swathe of mediums visiting the USA on tourist visas and earning money which I would not like to see.

Let us instead rely upon them to declare their own earnings and obtain teh correct paperwork.

"However, its quite possible a number of visa rules are being broken routinely particularly in regard to the USA and requirements for people to earn money. If raised this could have quite an impact on a broad swathe of mediums visiting the USA on tourist visas and earning money which I would not like to see."

I don't like folk breaking visa rules in terms of unauthorised earnings as it might impact on our travels and the interrogations we sometimes experience.....

I'm not knowledgeable about whether IRS in the USA are really bothered about illegal casual earnings of this sort (and plenty of Cannuck visitors routinely work while they're snowbirding) but all mediums ought to be aware of the potential for being challenged by IRS at some point - and the risk of losing their visa/entry permission.

I may contact the organisers about this and if anything send them my support - I know they are genuinely distressed and they are very honorable people. I really do feel for them.

The evening did cost us a lot of money, with tickets, fuel, food and it cost us a lot of time. However, I do feel I needed to see it for myself. I needed to see how this is being done and the strength of a community which will not accept blatant fraud. That has been a worthwhile lesson for me. What I do about that I'm not sure but I'm not afraid to stand up in a seance now and say something is 'fraud' and I will do that if it occurs again.

The Visa issue doesn't concern me. I often work abroad and make sure I am covered with the correct Visa and pay the relevant tax office. I feel that's Kai's business.

Coincidentally, a member on another of my regular 'spooks' forum boards was bursting with enthusiasm, and was full of praise, about what she'd witnessed at this demonstration.

For balance I pointed out (without naming names) what you'd told us and also pointed out the situation regarding the PM4U website but without mentioning its name.

I'd previously 'spoken' in another thread about earlier accounts concerning Herr Muegge and this same member 'laughed-out- loud' at what I had to say.

hey, ho onward and upward

I know - there is a hard core who won't believe it mac. The floor markers are a bit of an obvious clue apart from anything else but as you say hey ho. I think the fact that the host had a lot to lose and has shared their concern about Kai's partner leaving her chair on several occasions in blackout, when loud music and singing was occurring and not telling us is pretty damming. But nobody wants to admit to being duped and everyone there wanted to experience genuine phenomena - a perfect storm for delusion!

"But nobody wants to admit to being duped and everyone there wanted to experience genuine phenomena - a perfect storm for delusion!"

quite!

There's a saying I often use: "None so blind as those who choose not to see...."

truthwillout:

I cam across this recently on another forum -

Karl -
This addresses that and is from their website. It deals with an Australian medium and group they are not involved with.

THE FELIX EXPERIMENTAL GROUP (FEG): APPLIED SPIRITUALITY AND PHYSICAL SPIRIT MANIFESTATION: DAVID THOMPSONS CIRCLE OF THE SILVER CORD PROVIDES US WITH THE FIRST NON-INFRARED REST-LIGHT- PHOTO OF MATERIALIZED GUIDE

I only registered to tell you this...

1) THE FELIX PEOPLE KNOW THOMPSON QUITE GOOD. I have been on seances where they were as well as Thompson. They greeted each other AND, HANS BENDER the spirit help from FELIX GROUP of course appeared in the Thompson Seance.

Not linked... I tell you most of those people are linked.

AND ONE MORE FELIX GROUP WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE ME POSTING

2) One head of the group left the FELIX CIRCLE SOME WEEKS AGO. Reason, he suspects fraud. In an open letter to all people who hosted the circle as paying guests he said he can no longer assist those people as he has reasonable doubts on the whole thing. again, he was one of the head people of that project.

Want one more...

3) The head of FELIX CIRCLE formerly did a lot of postings in forums as MR.FREE telling about a marvellous group called FELIX CIRCLE who seem to be extraordinary and without doubt very honest in their acting.

Bad luck it was soon easy to find out the guy himself used different names to promotie his own circle.

Another one?

Before the FELIX CIRCLE started his project, he was searching for people attending at a movie project (as he is a film maker in germany). He said in his postings "if no phenomena occurs we will reproduce those phenomena by our own". Ahhh... yes - very trsutworthy indeed.

Last thing for today...

When the member who left opened his heart he said another reason for him was as he got aware of the fact that another head member is involved in a magician circle. Well... make your own story...

zerdini wrote:truthwillout:

I cam across this recently on another forum -

Karl -
This addresses that and is from their website. It deals with an Australian medium and group they are not involved with.

THE FELIX EXPERIMENTAL GROUP (FEG): APPLIED SPIRITUALITY AND PHYSICAL SPIRIT MANIFESTATION: DAVID THOMPSONS CIRCLE OF THE SILVER CORD PROVIDES US WITH THE FIRST NON-INFRARED REST-LIGHT- PHOTO OF MATERIALIZED GUIDE

I only registered to tell you this...

1) THE FELIX PEOPLE KNOW THOMPSON QUITE GOOD. I have been on seances where they were as well as Thompson. They greeted each other AND, HANS BENDER the spirit help from FELIX GROUP of course appeared in the Thompson Seance.

Not linked... I tell you most of those people are linked.

AND ONE MORE FELIX GROUP WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE ME POSTING

2) One head of the group left the FELIX CIRCLE SOME WEEKS AGO. Reason, he suspects fraud. In an open letter to all people who hosted the circle as paying guests he said he can no longer assist those people as he has reasonable doubts on the whole thing. again, he was one of the head people of that project.

Want one more...

3) The head of FELIX CIRCLE formerly did a lot of postings in forums as MR.FREE telling about a marvellous group called FELIX CIRCLE who seem to be extraordinary and without doubt very honest in their acting.

Bad luck it was soon easy to find out the guy himself used different names to promotie his own circle.

Another one?

Before the FELIX CIRCLE started his project, he was searching for people attending at a movie project (as he is a film maker in germany). He said in his postings "if no phenomena occurs we will reproduce those phenomena by our own". Ahhh... yes - very trsutworthy indeed.

Last thing for today...

When the member who left opened his heart he said another reason for him was as he got aware of the fact that another head member is involved in a magician circle. Well... make your own story...

It's a disgrace isn't it. All those wonderful Pioneers and genuine Physical Mediums developing today, must feel slapped in the face when they read this.

There's sonething about the physical side that seems to attract some deeply unpleasant and very irascible people. There are some good folk out there, we've a developing physical circle at our church, lovely people by and large but they have alraedy had to weed out the Mr & Ms 'angries' for the sake of harmony.
Rotters seem drawn to the physical side like moths round a flame.
On the commercial, off the peg 'phenomena' side; physical mediumship is run by crooks, sharks and shysters, absolute sorts of the first and worst order every last one of them.
The fact that honourable people are sucked into such shenanikins, until they find out what's going on; does not make those shenanikins any the less reprehensible.

It's looking very like what we act on as 'online bullying' over here Jim. Does need stopping.

It seems that even members of PM4U are having doubts:

Reply by Barry Johnson yesterday
Hello it's lovely to meet like minded souls here. I have been a sitter for many years in Australia. I was given the nod for development but asked to be developed as a good sitter - probably because I'm nosey and don't want to miss anything;) I have sat in hundreds of seances over the years, seen the most amazing phenomena, including full materialisation and I am just as excited each time I sit for a Medium.
I came to Banyan on Friday with a friend I am staying with in the UK. So we will probably have seen each other but not known who we were.
The report above of the seance is mostly how I remember it too - except from where we were sitting, we couldn't see the hands on the luminous plaque and I didn't get to see the lovely apport after.
Unfortunately, I was disappointed at the end as the 'ectoplasm' was not as it should be. I hope we can reasonably discuss this but it wasn't ectoplasm and didn't behave as such. It didn't exude from the medium and stuck like velcro to the cabinet curtains - the medium even peeled it off! Personally, if the substance has to retreat back into the medium's body, I wouldn't pull it about and tear it like it was a synthetic material. the risk of contamination is far too great apart from it should be left for the spirit operators to work with. A strange substance which was not from the medium but of this world. Perhaps there is another explanation? Otherwise I agree with the report, but if we are to seek the truth, as we all wish, we need to know exactly what this substance was.

Reply by Barry Johnson yesterday

Thanks for the reply Chris. I thought the apport was a beautiful moment and how lovely that it recognized all your work for Spirit. I can tell you don't do this for any other reason than love. Wonderful!
Of the numerous materialization seances I have been in, I have seen ectoplasm in various stages and forms of development. Kai is quite correct that it's structure changes as it develops. But what we saw was not ectoplasm sadly:(
Sadly, it has made me questions the rest of the experience - the taped raised floor marker and the taped down bucket don't look good (Kai needs to be careful as a sceptic would see that as a measured space to work in when it's pitch dark). I enter each seance excited by the prospect of the spirit realms joining us, but unfortunately came away disappointed on this occasion.
However, I don't take away from what a wonderful evening it was, surrounded by like minded seekers such as yourself, in such a beautiful environment.

Reply by Kai Muegge yesterday
Dear Friends, who can call himself an expert how ectoplasm has to look like!? How many mediums do you have seen extruding the substance!?
Depending on the physiology of the medium it can look pretty
much different! Its ability to cling on walls or sourrounding was demonstrated by margery, Mary marshall, Jack Webber! How often have you seen a mass like this under these good light conditions? In colour!
After in the first night its interior was presented and its ability to form things from it, in the second night the whole arrival process was shown through the mediums mouth! In good red light. Moreover its ability to move and form handforms from it. A huge column of it dd rise in front of the medium!
I really need to wonder Barry with which knowledge background you call it fraudulent!



Reply by Kai Muegge yesterday
Ps: Velcro? Are you kidding?
The sticky substance did leave no trace at all. The cabinet was inspected afterwards by the military police man who had checked the stripsearch of the medium! the control was superb and these masses could not have been brought in by the medium!


Reply by Barry Johnson yesterday
Kai, my knowledge background is from decades of sitting with physical mediums - many who produce ectoplasm for materialisation.
I just give my opinion based upon decades of experience and research. I am fully aware of the work of Jack Webber and I am happy for you to disagree.

One day, I wouldn't be surprised if Kai makes that documentary = blows apart the world of Physical Mediumship and consigns centuries of magnificent phenomena to the bin!

Gotta be honest here truth,, I have had those thoughts myself.

Before the FELIX CIRCLE started his project, he was searching for people attending at a movie project (as he is a film maker in germany). He said in his postings "if no phenomena occurs we will reproduce those phenomena by our own".
this comment if true.... just makes me think badly..

A sad, sorry and deplorable situation....

It's cultic. These selfish people prey on desperate folk some of whom from samples of posts seem to trail round from one physical show to the next comparing the quality or otherwise of the tricks the physical merchants pull out of their bag.
Everyone deserves a hobby and can spend their money how they choose but at best these physical events are a sideshow. At worst we become tarred with the same brush in the public mind and people think that this is the sort of thing that happens in mainstream Spiritualism.
Criminal deception happens, and seems to be on the increase. Good people are fleeced to see poor quality conjuring passed off as genuine phenomena. The shysters prosper and all for what?
Evidence? That you can get via a mental medium for little or no cost,minimal travel and no doubts as to its veracity if it's verifiable.
A chance to see a miracle or signs and wonders? Well there' a long tradition of people wanting to do that along with accompanying warnings that such things serve to divert the attention away from the truth and light of Spirit's dealing with individuals and the world. 'Lo here and lo there' people measuring the time between physical shows whilst deaf to the promptings of Spirit about what work they could be about for their own and wider benefit.
Spirit has no hands but ours and if those hands are waving a luminous banded trumpet about in a blacked out room whilst pretending it is floating or rearranging holofibre passed off as ectoplasm then those hands are not about any work of Spirit and the paying audience whilst maybe innocent of any guilt are nonetheless complicit by encouraging the continuance of such deceit.

As an aside and as a former serving soldier. I never met a military policeman who could find his own bottom with both hands let alone give reliable testimony to an event he had either paid or been paid to attend.
I continue to offer my own services; as a qualifed assessor of evidence [C&G D 32\33\34 & OCR A1&V1]; anywhere in England and at any time to any physical medium for service before,during and after a physical performance. Equipment provided and all free of charge. Contact via my website on here.

If anyone her is familiar of Germany's Baron Schrenck-Notzing's book Phenomena of Materialisation then they would be aware of two photographic sequences, included as full plates, showing the progession of ectoplasm in 1913. Kai rather brilliantly turned these into a video of the first recorded materialisation of ecoplasm. It was a very clever cinematographic trick available on youtube, which I had a link to upon this forum.

Clearly he has the ability and technology to achieve wonderful effects. Sadly the video has been disconnected from you tube currently, hard to understand why. Luckily I have a copy but cannot post it here without using youtube. It would be interesting to know whose copywright I may infringe by uploading it to youtube, the Baron as the originator or Kai's as the unnamed creator of the actual movie footage.

Admin wrote:If anyone her is familiar of Germany's Baron Schrenck-Notzing's book Phenomena of Materialisation then they would be aware of two photographic sequences, included as full plates, showing the progession of ectoplasm in 1913. Kai rather brilliantly turned these into a video of the first recorded materialisation of ecoplasm. It was a very clever cinematographic trick available on youtube, which I had a link to upon this forum.

Clealy he has the ability and technology to achieve wonderful effects. Sadly the video has been disconnected from youtube currently, hard to understand why. Luckily I have a copy but cannot post it here without using youtube. It would be interesting to know whose copywright I may infringe by uploading it to youtube, the Baron as the originator or Kai's as the unnamed creator of the actual movie footage.

Pity we can't watch it. A pity too that Herr Muegge is embroiled in the controversies his performances create.