Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

You can do MBTI over the Internet now but I've done the full shebang a few times now over 20 years for various academic courses and as part of work.

It has been fairly consistent. I am an INFP but the P is borderline and I shift quite easily into T. I tend to be very internal, however.

MBTI merely measures innate preferences but you can learn to accommodate.

One of the most useful things I learned from MBTI was how differently people think and process information. That has been really useful .

I would never have thought of spiritualist parallels, however. Some people are all three of the types you mention from what I've observed.

Yep VAK just gives a level of preference some people are strongly one others spread over all three. Usefulness to teachers is that identifying of own areas for development. If you can access all three domains equally you are better equipped to deal with all sorts of learners.. Is there a full MB online free Q? Haven't come across that. We've only seen the samplers. Link appreciated if you know one.
:-)

Hi Quiet,

It is interesting that there are generally more female mediums than male. I wondered what that was about as well but that is another discussion, not belonging here.

You will also find apreponderance of left handed people. I suspect that being a left handed person who speaks with the dead could have brought you an awful lot of trouble in the past (still can of course).

Jim

Aye indeed. Widdershins AND clairaudience was a dangerous mix not that long ago.

Left Handers are, physiologically; right brain preferees.
If you buy into that Left logical / Right intuitive idea.

All lady mediums back in the 50s wore hats on the platform too.
Maybe hats .....

To question the existence of Jesus is to question history. The bible is a historical book, like other historical books. If one questions the existence of Jesus, why not question whether or not Nero lived? Maybe Christopher Columbus never really existed? Perhaps history books are all made up?
History is the telling of HISTORY. The Old Testament is the telling of things that happened from the point of view of those who SAW the things recorded. The Gospels are the telling of the story of Jesus, from the viewpoint of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The stories were not made up.
Secular history books are the stories of events that people have either heard about or witnessed.
If you question the existence of Jesus, then you have to question the existence of any historical figure in the distant past.
It's not only the Bible that mentions Jesus. Read the following online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
I think Josephus knew what he was talking about.
The SPIRITS speak of Jesus. In the Spirits' Book the Messengers speak of Jesus constantly. Were they lying? With no. 625 of this book the question is asked, "What is the most perfect example that God has offered to us as a guide and model?" The answer is, "Jesus."
If Jesus didn't exist, then the whole Spiritist movement is based on a lie. The foundation is gone.
I believe the same could be said of Spiritualism.... at least Spiritualism in the United States.
I find it sad that someone would wish to steal the faith that others have in Jesus.

eirefox wrote:To question the existence of Jesus is to question history. The bible is a historical book, like other historical books. If one questions the existence of Jesus, why not question whether or not Nero lived? Maybe Christopher Columbus never really existed? Perhaps history books are all made up?
History is the telling of HISTORY. The Old Testament is the telling of things that happened from the point of view of those who SAW the things recorded. The Gospels are the telling of the story of Jesus, from the viewpoint of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The stories were not made up.
Secular history books are the stories of events that people have either heard about or witnessed.
If you question the existence of Jesus, then you have to question the existence of any historical figure in the distant past.
It's not only the Bible that mentions Jesus. Read the following online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
I think Josephus knew what he was talking about.
The SPIRITS speak of Jesus. In the Spirits' Book the Messengers speak of Jesus constantly. Were they lying? With no. 625 of this book the question is asked, "What is the most perfect example that God has offered to us as a guide and model?" The answer is, "Jesus."
If Jesus didn't exist, then the whole Spiritist movement is based on a lie. The foundation is gone.
I believe the same could be said of Spiritualism.... at least Spiritualism in the United States.
I find it sad that someone would wish to steal the faith that others have in Jesus.

Nobody can take away your faith, although your faith may change with time and knowledge.

My personal belief is that Christ did exist and that he was a remarkable being. I am not sure that the version of his life and teachings told by various Churches is totally correct however.

The old and new testaments have been written and rewritten so many times that we are no longer sure how accurate they actually are. History is always open to question as you would surely agree.

I live in Australia where the history of the aboriginal people was written by white males initially. Much of what I learned in school about aboriginal people was quite incorrect because it was the very biased and quite ignorant account of those first observers. In some ways history is a great detective story, We are always finding new accounts, facts and parts of the whole picture.

I don't know the particular book you mention but some of the work of spirit communicators I have read, e.g. Ramadahn, also mention Jesus. So I have do doubt that he existed. It is really interesting to look at what he actually said. Stephen Mitchell does that partly in his book The Gospel according to Jesus.. As I said in an earlier post the teachings are quite beautiful.

Although I have little doubt that Christ existed and was very significant being, I am not sure that he holds the place that Christians attribute to him alone in the greater scheme of things. I guess I like Annie Besant's description of Christ as the great teacher for the West. There were other great spiritual teachers as well. Buddha and Mohammed fall into this category.

It will be good to put the pieces together when we pass, I think, acknowledging the ingenuousness of that statement . I look forward to that time with a certain quiet happiness, although I suspect it is some time away yet.

I agree eirefox.
There's room for all sorts in Spiritualism. These old 'battles' between the Secularist the Christian and the National Spiritualists are such old hat.
We should leave that sort of thing to the orthodox denominations, they've had centuries of practice.

KatyKing,
To me, Jesus is a very important Person. It doesn't matter to me if someone 'believes' in Jesus or not. What's important to me is whether they practice what he taught, namely "Love the Lord your God... and your neighbor as yourself." If someone put the Law of Love into action, then they are a follower of Jesus, even if they've never heard of him. This is just my opinion.
I'm not one to generally argue or prove a point. But, I personally think it would be a sad day if Spiritualism threw Jesus out the door and said he was onlyl a fictional character. I personally think it ludicrous to believe he never existed.

KatyKing wrote:I agree eirefox.
There's room for all sorts in Spiritualism. These old 'battles' between the Secularist the Christian and the National Spiritualists are such old hat.
We should leave that sort of thing to the orthodox denominations, they've had centuries of practice.

Hi Quiet,
Well, I've heard the argument that the Bible has been written and re-written so many times that it's not accurate. I personally don't believe that. The Jews were very careful when they copied the Bible. The monks were also very careful when they made copies of the Scriptures. If you do an online search of how they copied the scriptures in days-gone-by, I think you might come to a different conclusion.
I personally think that a lot of the Old Testament can't be considered 'the Word of God.' I think that Moses claimed divine inspiration, because that's simply how things were done back then. If you said, "Jehovah says you have to cross the river Jordan and wipe out all of those people who are living over there," then you didn't question it, because your prophet is saying that GOD is commanding you to do this attrocious act. However, the 10 Commandments are another story. I think they were divinely inspired by God, and re-itterated by Jesus Christ. If you haven't read any of the books by Allan Kardec, I'd encourage you to do so. His book "Genesis" talks a lot about the accuracy (or innacuracy) of the Bible. These writings can potentially give you a new reverence for Jesus, and the importance of His teachings and Life.
I could go on and on, but I really shouldn't. I could talk about Jesus, and His true place in the Divine Hierarchy, but I'd probably be considered a radical I personally think that Jesus is more than just another prophet; He is more than just a Messenger; I think He is the First Born of all Creation; I believe He is God's "Right Hand Man" so-to-speak, and that through Him (by His dictation) all other true messengers are sent. This is rather mind-boggling if one believes and accepts this, because God has been creating from infinity, so what does that say about Jesus? There never has been a time when God was idle. We can't even begin to grasp the infinity of God. We can't even begin to glimpse into the past.
Well, I'll stop preaching now. However, please do order a book online. I'd personally start with THE SPIRITS' BOOK, or THE MEDIUMS' BOOK, or THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SPIRITUALISM. Contact me if you'd like to discuss this somemore.

Quiet wrote:

eirefox wrote:To question the existence of Jesus is to question history. The bible is a historical book, like other historical books. If one questions the existence of Jesus, why not question whether or not Nero lived? Maybe Christopher Columbus never really existed? Perhaps history books are all made up?
History is the telling of HISTORY. The Old Testament is the telling of things that happened from the point of view of those who SAW the things recorded. The Gospels are the telling of the story of Jesus, from the viewpoint of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The stories were not made up.
Secular history books are the stories of events that people have either heard about or witnessed.
If you question the existence of Jesus, then you have to question the existence of any historical figure in the distant past.
It's not only the Bible that mentions Jesus. Read the following online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
I think Josephus knew what he was talking about.
The SPIRITS speak of Jesus. In the Spirits' Book the Messengers speak of Jesus constantly. Were they lying? With no. 625 of this book the question is asked, "What is the most perfect example that God has offered to us as a guide and model?" The answer is, "Jesus."
If Jesus didn't exist, then the whole Spiritist movement is based on a lie. The foundation is gone.
I believe the same could be said of Spiritualism.... at least Spiritualism in the United States.
I find it sad that someone would wish to steal the faith that others have in Jesus.

Nobody can take away your faith, although your faith may change with time and knowledge.

My personal belief is that Christ did exist and that he was a remarkable being. I am not sure that the version of his life and teachings told by various Churches is totally correct however.

The old and new testaments have been written and rewritten so many times that we are no longer sure how accurate they actually are. History is always open to question as you would surely agree.

I live in Australia where the history of the aboriginal people was written by white males initially. Much of what I learned in school about aboriginal people was quite incorrect because it was the very biased and quite ignorant account of those first observers. In some ways history is a great detective story, We are always finding new accounts, facts and parts of the whole picture.

I don't know the particular book you mention but some of the work of spirit communicators I have read, e.g. Ramadahn, also mention Jesus. So I have do doubt that he existed. It is really interesting to look at what he actually said. Stephen Mitchell does that partly in his book The Gospel according to Jesus.. As I said in an earlier post the teachings are quite beautiful.

Although I have little doubt that Christ existed and was very significant being, I am not sure that he holds the place that Christians attribute to him alone in the greater scheme of things. I guess I like Annie Besant's description of Christ as the great teacher for the West. There were other great spiritual teachers as well. Buddha and Mohammed fall into this category.

It will be good to put the pieces together when we pass, I think, acknowledging the ingenuousness of that statement . I look forward to that time with a certain quiet happiness, although I suspect it is some time away yet.

Hello Eirefox, do you believe that Jesus is the son of god and therefore more divine than we could ever hope to be, or that Jesus was completely human and an example of the level of divinity that we are all theoretically capable of achieving ourselves?

Hi Wes,
I believe that Jesus was pre-existent. I believe we were all pre-existent. God creates us as spirit beings, and we use human bodies to learn lessons and advance. Jesus was the 'first born' of all creation. In other words, he was spirit, just as we are spirit, but he is the beinning of the creation of God. "This is the message from the Amen- the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God." Rev. 3:14 (there are more scriptures that speak of Jesus as being the First Born, the beginning of the creation process, ect. such as John chapter one.) So, I'm not saying that Jesus is different than us. I'm saying that Jesus had a head-start on us. If God is infinite, and if He's always been creating (which is what the advanced spirits have told us), then Jesus was created from infinity. We cannot comprehend this at this point of our advancement. It's impossible to understand right now. Can we ever attain to the level that Jesus is at? No. Why? Because Christ was the First Born, and as the First Born He is heir of all things. He will always be higher in position and honor than we are. However, at the same time, He is our Brother and fellow son of God. I suppose it's like asking, "Mike, can you ever be the King of England?" I'd say, "No." Why? Is it because the King of England is is a diffenet type of creature than I? No. It's because I am not an heir to the throne. This all makes sense if one thinks about it, and it fits the Spiritualist religion to a T.

" We enthrone service as the greatest of all religions, mutual helpfulness, tolerance, compassion to all, human or animal, so that you can truly have, if you so desire, a kingdom of heaven on earth.
That is the task on which we are all engaged".

Silver Birch in May issue of Two Worlds, page 12

Wonderful quote from Silver Birch! Yes, we can attain the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. We were even told to pray for the Kingdom in the Lord's prayer. Love of God and love of neighbor is the fulfillment of the law of God. That is all that is required of us. "He hath shown thee, oh man, what is right and what the Lord requres of thee. But to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God." That's all that is required of us. And honestly, whatever one believes about Jesus doesn't mean anything. One can believe in Jesus and be intollerant, hostile and mean. One who doesn't believe in Jesus can be tollerant, peace-loving and kind. Which is the true follower of Jesus? The one who does what He commands, whether he is even aware of Jesus or not.

KatyKing wrote:" We enthrone service as the greatest of all religions, mutual helpfulness, tolerance, compassion to all, human or animal, so that you can truly have, if you so desire, a kingdom of heaven on earth.
That is the task on which we are all engaged".

Silver Birch in May issue of Two Worlds, page 12

Our church left SNU over compliance. One sticking point was they wouldn't countenance using Lord's Prayer. Church wouldn't drop it. SNU lost one of the biggest churches in the region as a consequence. We still use Lord's Prayer.
Another church I serve, very small; has Lord's Prayer always and a bible reading now and again if chair thinks it appropriate other times it'll be a general inspirational reading. SNU kicked them out.

It's just plain daft all this division over dogma. Today I took lunch with an Indian Brahmin family. Best veggie food I've had in years and what they gave me to bring home for Mrs K will feed us both all weekend.
Talking about the core of their path and ours we were of one mind on essentials. One Spirit over all and many paths leading to that Truth..

http://www.nsac.org/
My response disappeared. I must have done something wrong! The National Spiritualist Association of Churches here is the USA considers itself a non-Christian religion. There are 3 Spiritualist churches in our area. Two are christian churches and not part of the NSAC. The 3rd I've never visited (it's newer and has some sort of link with England).
I find it intollerant of the NSU to kick a church out over the Lord's Prayer. That's rather controlling (cult-like).

KatyKing wrote:Our church left SNU over compliance. One sticking point was they wouldn't countenance using Lord's Prayer. Church wouldn't drop it. SNU lost one of the biggest churches in the region as a consequence. We still use Lord's Prayer.
Another church I serve, very small; has Lord's Prayer always and a bible reading now and again if chair thinks it appropriate other times it'll be a general inspirational reading. SNU kicked them out.

Isn't it interestng that the only things that Silver Birch hates are dogmas, creeds and belief systems. Which is quite liberating, to think that you are not obliged to follow anyone's thoughts and beliefs but your own.

To retun to Jesus, I am curious as to what christian spiritualists believe about god and jesus that set them apart from spiritualists. I assume that it's the divine nature of Jesus that is in question. As to claim that he is the son of god through divine impregnation of a woman without her consent, directly opposes the idea of free will....

Mary was not divinely imprgnated against her will. When Gabriel appeared to her (which sounds rather Spiritualistic to me) he said "You will conceive and give birth to a son..." And Mary answered "Let it be done to me according to your word." That doesn't sound to me as if anything was done to her contrary to her will. She was clearly willing to go along with the divine plan. That's why God chose her. I know the virgin birth is a problem for a lot of Spiritualists. The higher spirits don't speak about the birth of Jesus as being a virgin birth or not a virgin birth. The passage used in the NT to quote that "a virgin will conceive and give birth" does not necessarily mean 'virgin' in the Hebrew (from where the passage comes). It simply means "young woman." God doesn't go against natural processes. Is He able to? Of course He can. The virgin birth is one of those things that everyone must decide for themselves.

Wes wrote:Isn't it interestng that the only things that Silver Birch hates are dogmas, creeds and belief systems. Which is quite liberating, to think that you are not obliged to follow anyone's thoughts and beliefs but your own.

To retun to Jesus, I am curious as to what christian spiritualists believe about god and jesus that set them apart from spiritualists. I assume that it's the divine nature of Jesus that is in question. As to claim that he is the son of god through divine impregnation of a woman without her consent, directly opposes the idea of free will....

That seems to be a contradiction though, to have a god that doesn't go against natural processes, and yet have a virgin birth as ordained by god....

Well, over the centuries there has been a lot of progress in science. Things we do today (cell phones, television, air flight, ect.) would have seemed like a miracle or magic to people way back when. Just because we don't understand something, or just because we think it's impossible, doesn't mean that it's a miracle. Spirit communication is looked at as a fraud and as non-scientific by most in the scientific community. Yet, you believe in that. Just because they don't believe in it doesn't mean it's not true, or that it's non-scientific. Just because we can't comprehend that a virgin birth can happen doesn't mean that God can't cause it to happen naturally. Besides, the Bible doesn't dogmatically say that Jesus was born of a virgin. I think that's something which each one has to decide for themselves. I'm not trying to push this on you.
I'm simply saying that God can do what He wants. Otherwise, He wouldn't be God. I'm not saying He goes against nature, but I'm certainly not going to dogmatically say that He doesn't either.

Wes wrote:That seems to be a contradiction though, to have a god that doesn't go against natural processes, and yet have a virgin birth as ordained by god....

Hi Eirefox,

Interesting that

Well, I'll stop preaching now. However, please do order a book online. I'd personally start with THE SPIRITS' BOOK, or THE MEDIUMS' BOOK, or THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SPIRITUALISM. Contact me if you'd like to discuss this somemore

.

These are Spiritist books by Allan Kardec who wanted Spiritism to flourish in a Catholic country, he never intended it to be a religion small or capital R. He was also a great believer in reincarnation. It is quite important to note that these represent a very different thread of Spiritualism.

They are also assembled from the work of a bewildering array of mediums and assembled by Kardec in what he thought was the correct order. Not surprisingly the sources were within Christian countries so the Christ issue was important.

Silver Birch and Estelle Roberts Red Cloud always used the term the Nazarene for Jesus and whilst acknowledging him never placed him higher than other great Spiritual teachers of the past.

I and many Spiritualists are not Christians, if you like, I believe Jesus existed and handed down the same teachings, that mankind distort and ignore, that other prior teachers gave to us.

I see no need to accept as accurate either the old or the new testaments. If we do then the whole scientific history of the world is incorrect. The Bible is not a book of history but of religion and theology. the old testament is, given there is history of the Torah being rewritten and revised, the history of one tribe not the history of the world. If I have to look at that era, the time of creation, I would prefer to listen to the Aboriginal Dream Time Stories, the Gospel of another tribe.

By the way no one here has actually rejected Jesus, we just all have very different views of his importance. In addition there is a substantial lack of real history of that time and the Middle East. For 2000 years now it has been almost illegal to challenge orthodoxy. That is why I said the whole issue should be viewed through pure history not history to suit theology.

True Spiritists would continue with their own religous beliefs, Spiritualism has moved in 3 directions, rational non Christian believers in continued existence and God. Christian Spiritualists, these generally focus on the teachings of Christ, no trinity, no vicarious atonement although some manage to include everything, which is totally at odds with Spiritualism, because then we have a heaven for Christians only. Then we have the metaphysical magical Spiritualists who throw everything in new age and whatever bits they wish from other sources.

Clearly you will not convert us to a Christian viewpoint or even a Spiritist viewpoint. There is much in those Kardec teachings that I do not like that does not resonate with me. He is quite big on punishment too, like the old testament.

Jim

I wasn't trying to preach at anyone. I was simply answering Wes' questions. I've said that it doesn't matter to me if anyone believes in Jesus or not. What matters is how one lives their life. I didn't mean to rock the boat. I apologize if I did. Regarding the accuracy of the bible, I said that the writers recorded what they saw. I never said that I thought it was all divinely inspired. I'm not attempting to upset anyone. I'm simply replied to the original post and answered the questions that were asked of me honestly (my own thoughts).

Admin wrote:Hi Eirefox,

Interesting that

Well, I'll stop preaching now. However, please do order a book online. I'd personally start with THE SPIRITS' BOOK, or THE MEDIUMS' BOOK, or THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SPIRITUALISM. Contact me if you'd like to discuss this somemore

.

These are Spiritist books by Allan Kardec who wanted Spiritism to flourish in a Catholic country, he never intended it to be a religion small or capital R. He was also a great believer in reincarnation. It is quite important to note that these represent a very different thread of Spiritualism.

They are also assembled from the work of a bewildering array of mediums and assembled by Kardec in what he thought was the correct order. Not surprisingly the sources were within Christian countries so the Christ issue was important.

Silver Birch and Estelle Roberts Red Cloud always used the term the Nazarene for Jesus and whilst acknowledging him never placed him higher than other great Spiritual teachers of the past.

I and many Spiritualists are not Christians, if you like, I believe Jesus existed and handed down the same teachings, that mankind distort and ignore, that other prior teachers gave to us.

I see no need to accept as accurate either the old or the new testaments. If we do then the whole scientific history of the world is incorrect. The Bible is not a book of history but of religion and theology. the old testament is, given there is history of the Torah being rewritten and revised, the history of one tribe not the history of the world. If I have to look at that era, the time of creation, I would prefer to listen to the Aboriginal Dream Time Stories, the Gospel of another tribe.

By the way no one here has actually rejected Jesus, we just all have very different views of his importance. In addition there is a substantial lack of real history of that time and the Middle East. For 2000 years now it has been almost illegal to challenge orthodoxy. That is why I said the whole issue should be viewed through pure history not history to suit theology.

True Spiritists would continue with their own religous beliefs, Spiritualism has moved in 3 directions, rational non Christian believers in continued existence and God. Christian Spiritualists, these generally focus on the teachings of Christ, no trinity, no vicarious atonement although some manage to include everything, which is totally at odds with Spiritualism, because then we have a heaven for Christians only. Then we have the metaphysical magical Spiritualists who throw everything in new age and whatever bits they wish from other sources.

Clearly you will not convert us to a Christian viewpoint or even a Spiritist viewpoint. There is much in those Kardec teachings that I do not like that does not resonate with me. He is quite big on punishment too, like the old testament.

Jim

Hi Eirefox,

No you are allowed to support your own view of Spiritualism on here and discussion is always welcome. However, you speak as if you represent USA Spiritualism. Now I have very good friends in the NSAC two of whom, Rev Anne Gehman and Rev Marilyn Awtry, have been on their board. I know that their views on this subject and my views are very close.

What you are doing is representing more a US Spiritist or Christian Spiritualist viewpoint than the mainstream USA NSAC view or that of the rational Spiritualist centres. Indeed the NSAC do not, in their principles. acknoledge God as God but as the Infinite Intelligence.

I am quite happy for you to defend and represent your view but please acknowledge it only represents that of a minority of the Christian Spiritualist Churches in the USA, in some ways Christian Spiritualism is as diverse as the metaphysical Spiritualist Churches. Your views would probably go well in the Spiritist centres in the USA too.

Spiritualists have a very different structure to their belief in reality, we acknowledge the need to be our own saviour with the help of our guides and require no intermediary between ourselves and God. I can quite understand and accept that some will choose to do so within a Christian foundation and others will not.

In honesty you have brought a lot of interesting points to this thread which is a very worthwhile debate.

Jim

I for one find the idea of a human Jesus more inspiring than a divine Jesus, as it sets an example of what we as humans are capable of. It's not like his teachings or life would have any less value or meaning if he was "demoted" from divine/human to wholly human. Just as Mohammed's life and teachings would not have any extra value or meaning if the opposite happened and he was "promoted" from wholly human to divine/human.


I do wonder if so much importance was placed on Jesus' divinity to add legitimacy and power to a new religion. There really is no limit on how far people will go once they have a lust for money, power and control over others...