Ronald Baker

Swordmaiden wrote:Yes I was with him at the Psychic News presentation and he was very much the golden boy of the hour. I was not at this sitting. As I understand it, there was a lot of bitching going on among Mediums at the time. I didn't get involved. But knowing the News of the World's reputation, even if I didn't know the people involved I would have been doubtful of the story's validity. All I know is that the hundreds of sittings I sat in with Paul in our home, all with no money changing hands, all, at that time, with one small group, hundreds of apports had appeared. They were not the purpose of the sitting, the lhours of ectures by Ceros were. Why would Paul squash a carnation into the battery compartment of a tape recorder when for years he was producing fresh, unsquashed flowers for people, including under test conditions? Its all a bit dodgy. I am no longer a Spiritualist and have nothing to defend but I still find the whole episode decidedly dodgy and only a few loyal friends stood by Paul to at least give him the benefit of the doubt. Very sad.

Thanks for sharing that it's always nice to get both sides of the story. I agree with the bitching, I have heard many, many things that mediums have done on eachother, would make you think, alot of backstabbing goes on, nothing would suprise me nowadays

Thanks very much for sharing that story Swordmaiden, pust things into a different perspective.

Admin wrote:Thanks very much for sharing that story Swordmaiden, pust things into a different perspective.

I personally witnessed deliberate fraud by Paul at a friend's house who was a great supporter of his mediumship.

Zerdini, please tell us what you saw.x

Swordmaiden wrote:Zerdini, please tell us what you saw.x

You were with him at the time. So, either you were an accomplice or you were very naive.

I see little point in raking up the past as apparently he is now leading a different life but what I saw was definitely fraudulent.

I said to my friend after the two of you had left that we has just witnessed fraudulent behaviour and he agreed adding "why would he do that?" to which of course there is no answer.

It wasn't long after that particular incident that Albert Best, who described Paul as 'McElphoney', and Ron Baker two of our most outstanding mediums, exposed him as a fraud.

zerdini wrote:

Swordmaiden wrote:Zerdini, please tell us what you saw.x

You were with him at the time. So, either you were an accomplice or you were very naive.

How rude (but becomingly typical)!

I see little point in raking up the past as apparently he is now leading a different life but what I saw was definitely fraudulent.

<SNIP>

Then why make a statement your are unable to substantiate or expand upon?

Take no notice of 'zerdini' swordmaiden. It's just poor old George Canley ex NAS doing his Victor Meldrewish 'Pot ... Kettle' impressions.
Being good Spiritualists we make allowances for age and decrepitude.

Yes, I was very naive. This is why I am no longer a Spiritualist and have no Faith at all. Until 2003 I lived my life happy in the knowledge that there is life after death and that all I was brought up to believe was true. In my years with Paul I never doubted the reality of what he was doing and it only confirmed my beliefs. I still struggle sometimes reckoning my lack of belief now with the evidence I witnessed then, this is why it is important to me to know what others saw. Obviously you would rather not say. So be it.

Swordmaiden, why did he stop, if Paul was genuine then why stop-- I am not suggesting he was a fraud, would be wrong of me to do so, as I have never experienced his mediumship. But just curious if he believed and knew that his work was genuine and of the spirit, why would would he stop, I would imagine he would do all he could to clear his name of any unfair claims made against him. I always was interested in hearing his side of the story.

He didn't stop. He eventually carried on but only in small, private groups of close friends. The whole "fraud" thing hit him hard, mainly because people he trusted were accomplices to such a nasty tabloid exposure. He withdrew from public mediumship and we had a son and a "normal" life for while. My problem is that, to me, all mediumship is and always was, fraudulant, I just so wanted it to be true. As I said, I find it hard to reconcile some of the things I witnessed against my lack of belief now. I would love to still believe in LaD, but I cannot.Ceros (Paul's guide) is the only thing that still puzzles me. Thats why I would like to know if others had reason to doubt his Mediumship.
Either way, if he was a fraud, the way it was exposed via the tabloids was despicable. The Mediums involved should have exposed him "in-house"; they discredited the cause of Spiritualism by going to the News of the World. It was a terribly upsetting time for me as I was expecting a baby, we lost our home and the police were also involved and questioned both of us. (charges were dropped). Can you imagine trying to tell a police detective about Mediumship?? Very scary time, especially as, to me, at the time, Paul was genuine.
I have to say tho, all this is not the reason I lost my Faith.

In what way does his guide still puzzle you, I don't follow. Seems like a very traumatic time you had. I agree, the News of the World should have not been involved it gives the whole movement a bad name then.

Swordmaiden wrote:Yes, I was very naive. This is why I am no longer a Spiritualist and have no Faith at all. Until 2003 I lived my life happy in the knowledge that there is life after death and that all I was brought up to believe was true. In my years with Paul I never doubted the reality of what he was doing and it only confirmed my beliefs. I still struggle sometimes reckoning my lack of belief now with the evidence I witnessed then, this is why it is important to me to know what others saw. Obviously you would rather not say. So be it.

I don't know what happened, apart from what has been written here, but I am really sorry that it affected you ins such a way that you lost faith.

I left a spiritualist church here because of truly appalling behaviour by church officials and some other members of the spiritualist community. What happened equated to a witch hunt of another medium. The issues were not about phoniness but ignorance and intolerance. I think that many vulnerable people were deeply affected.

Fortunately I believed what I had seen and experienced through high quality mediumship and I had found a doorway to knowledge through reading but the experience had a quite profound practical impact on me. A few new experiences have helped since and I have found a small church community which I plan to join. People are human and behave questionably at times.

All I can say is Know that you are loved and perhaps seek another group of people that you feel comfortable with. Perhaps do some reading. This internet community is a nice place.

I am struck by how some people seem intent on demonstrating physical phenomena when it is actually not that important in the overall scheme of things. In this day and age it is so easy to be fraudulent (technology, media and magician-ship) and there are always people waiting eagerly in the Colosseum to prove fraud. Maybe at a certain time in spiritualist history physical phenomena was important but I personally don't think it is necessary to faith these days. I am not saying that Paul or anyone else was fraudulent, by the way.

Kindness and service to others, no matter how unobtrusive, is all that really matters.

Whatever, Swordmaiden, you are entitled to your atheism! I have just read a few more of your posts

Thank you Quiet Today. It was not this incident which caused my loss of faith. I try to reconcile my atheism with life now. It was hard when my parents died recently (both in their 80's. They brought me up as a Spiritualist and I sat in a regular circle from the age of 9). I am now interested in the philosphy of finding meaning and purpose in life without the promise of a next one. I am exploring our need to believe in life after death to sustain us through this one and how to support people who lose their faith and with it, their sense of purpose.

Mark74: I am puzzled because this guide was so remarkable and so unlike Paul. It was like living with 2 completely different people! Paul was clever but I don't believe he was articulate enough to sustain the sheer level of intelegence and love which Ceros portrayed. I still have some tapes of the lectures and when I listen to them now, I find it almost impossible to find a trace of Paul in there anywhere. I don't believe he was clever enough to sustain that for so many years. Paul, a cheeky, charismatic Liverpudlian and Ceros, a deep, loving, consistent Italian. I have seen many "trance" mediums and one can always detect an aspect of the medium in the person, a tone of voice or characteristic. They get away with this by saying they are being "influenced" by the person speaking. But Ceros was an entirely different person than Paul. Entirely different voice and use of language. It would be easier for me if I could find the flaw in it.

Swordmaiden wrote:Thank you Quiet Today. It was not this incident which caused my loss of faith. I try to reconcile my atheism with life now. It was hard when my parents died recently (both in their 80's. They brought me up as a Spiritualist and I sat in a regular circle from the age of 9). I am now interested in the philosphy of finding meaning and purpose in life without the promise of a next one. I am exploring our need to believe in life after death to sustain us through this one and how to support people who lose their faith and with it, their sense of purpose.

I like the idea of finding meaning and purpose in life without necessarily the promise of a next one. It sounds quite like the principle of living in the present and making the most of life as it is. Living in the present because that is all we have. That is quite compatible with many spiritual principles and faith practices, including Humanism and Spiritualism (living in the present). Victor Frankl was about that also (from memory).

The belief that we are spirit didn't come to me until quite late in life. I had a series of quite significant tragic events over a long period of time and might ultimately have sought death if I had not encountered that idea (through evidential mediumship). The belief that life has meaning and there is love and support available has sustained me into the somewhat happy life that I have now.

People do come from different places and experiences. It's good that you have found meaning now . Everyone is unique.

Yes, Victor Frankl has been a great influence on me, as has Krishnamurti. I particularly like Frankl's book 'The Doctor and the Soul'.
I believe it is possible to be "spiritual" without anything to do with surviving death. I don't like the word because it conjors up a different take on things. I am interested in individual consciousness, Sam Harris is worth getting know.He is one of the, so called New Atheists but he is particularly interested in the place of meditation and "spiritual" development without the need of religion or faith etc. Very much living in the Now. I would so love to have evidence that the consciousness does survive death but the lack of evidence leads me to say that it extremely unlikely. Most of what I thought was evidence at the time turns out to be wishful thinking on my part and making the cap fit, so to speak. It was too awful to think that we just died.

Swordmaiden wrote:Yes, Victor Frankl has been a great influence on me, as has Krishnamurti. I particularly like Frankl's book 'The Doctor and the Soul'.
I believe it is possible to be "spiritual" without anything to do with surviving death. I don't like the word because it conjors up a different take on things. I am interested in individual consciousness, Sam Harris is worth getting know.He is one of the, so called New Atheists but he is particularly interested in the place of meditation and "spiritual" development without the need of religion or faith etc. Very much living in the Now. I would so love to have evidence that the consciousness does survive death but the lack of evidence leads me to say that it extremely unlikely. Most of what I thought was evidence at the time turns out to be wishful thinking on my part and making the cap fit, so to speak. It was too awful to think that we just died.

I think it is possible to be spiritual without believing in an after life. Spirituality can be about living in the present and the sharing of love and understanding with other human beings. That is how it was for me for 20 years. I had no idea what 'afterlife' really meant and didn't think about it very much. Then one year things started to happen and I went down the road which lead me to my current position.

In 2006 after a particular event, I did receive communication through evidential mediumship from loved ones who had died and quite a few times after that. It convinced me. I know it was not just wishful thinking. I've had a few other very moving experiences as well. Glad that that all happened because I needed a bit of package. Not everyone does.

But faith is individual and ultimately a matter of choice and attraction. I wouldn't try to convince people otherwise. It's hard enough to manage one's own life without trying to persuade others . It is sometimes hard for me to manage 'living in the present' but it is all about progress not perfection, as they say.

Nice to meet you. Hope you hang around and contribute some times

Andrew Jackson Davis has something about Spiritualist needing to.... engage in earnest effort tending to self improvement and the elevation of human society....
so maybe anyone so engaged whatever they call themselves are going about spiritual matters.
Good posts on this strand. Most 'elevating' thank you Q & sm.

KatyKing wrote: Take no notice of 'zerdini' swordmaiden. It's just poor old George Canley ex NAS doing his Victor Meldrewish 'Pot ... Kettle' impressions.
Being good Spiritualists we make allowances for age and decrepitude.

Are you a Spiritualist, Peter? Your words and actions belie that statement.

_Leslie_ wrote:

zerdini wrote:

Swordmaiden wrote:Zerdini, please tell us what you saw.x

You were with him at the time. So, either you were an accomplice or you were very naive.

How rude (but becomingly typical)!

I see little point in raking up the past as apparently he is now leading a different life but what I saw was definitely fraudulent.

<SNIP>

Then why make a statement your are unable to substantiate or expand upon?

I can sustantiate every word I wrote It's not rude at all. She freely admits she was naive.

I don't intend to drag other people into this let alone Paul who has moved on. Neither do I intend to feed the gossipmongers.

zerdini wrote:<SNIP>

I can sustantiate every word I wrote It's not rude at all. She freely admits she was naive.

I don't intend to drag other people into this let alone Paul who has moved on. Neither do I intend to feed the gossipmongers.

"A little inaccuracy sometimes saves a ton of explanation."
- H. H. Munro (Saki) (1870-1916)

[quote="_Leslie_"]

zerdini wrote:<SNIP>

I can sustantiate every word I wrote It's not rude at all. She freely admits she was naive.

I don't intend to drag other people into this let alone Paul who has moved on. Neither do I intend to feed the gossipmongers.

Yes, Zerdini, "she" felt it was a little rude but I have broad shoulders. Yes I was naive enough to trust that people who presented as honest and true were not. People who make claims cannot always live up to them. I am certainly not as trusting anymore.
However, this is not gossiping, far from it, this is trying to lay some facts out for discussion. It is pointless telling us what you know you saw without elaborating. I might be able to shed light on the occassion if I remember it, I might not. I know I was no "accomplice" and am offended that you should even suggest it.
I am glad that most people on this site are friendly and welcoming.

George's bark is worse than his bite sm. All on here are a friendly crew as a rule.
This is a fascinating strand. I can't imagine how awful it must have been. To lose one's home through what went on smacks of latter day martyrdom. Just goes to show that maybe we are not as far as we'd like to think from the burning times.

Yes KK ; I cannot say for sure if there was fraudulent behaviour or not; from my stance as a non-believer now I would have to say that the years I spent with Paul Mc were an incredibly clever hoax. My dilemma is that there is so much that I cannot say for sure is not evidential. However this is not really the point. The point is that these revered "Mediums" can stoop so low as to potentially wreck people's lives.
Knowing what I know now and how I feel about Spiritulaism, I would love to go for a private reading one day. I am in strange position of not believing but wishing I could be convinced again. I am so much more objective about it. Life was much easier when I believed., even if I was deceiving myself. I have no problem with anyone believing anything they like, my biggest worry is vulnerable people who are being deceived by people who really do believe they are in touch with their dead ones. The big question is, is it better for some people to live with the deception and get some "comfort", or face up to the reality of death being finite. x