same theme again

by mac Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:47 pm

I know I'm fortunate because I don't need reassurance about survival. Elsewhere, though, I encounter individuals who do. They come in dire need of it but with nowhere to go - literally.

They live in countries where there isn't the network of Spiritualist churches and centres we enjoy here in the UK. Especially peculiar when it's the place where Modern Spiritualism has its roots - the USA. Less so, perhaps, elsewhere. Even in the UK, though, "fings ain't wot they used to be" and Spiritualist mediumship isn't either.

On another website, in other forums, I 'meet' members desperate about the loss of a loved one. I hesitate to suggest Spiritualist teachings as a way to grasp the fundamentals. Not because I've 'lost my faith' but because what's missing is the very thing that sets Modern Spiritualism apart from all the others; good standards of evidential mediumship provided by experienced practitioners.

If there isn't someone who can offer personal evidence of the survival of a loved one when that's what's most needed, what does Spiritualism have to offer other than belief, something that's anathema to me.

At a time when modern technology enables us to communicate with folk around the world we find ourselves less able to provide evidence of survival through mediumship than was the situation half a century and more ago.

by Lammie Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:41 pm

mac wrote:

At a time when modern technology enables us to communicate with folk around the world we find ourselves less able to provide evidence of survival through mediumship than was the situation half a century and more ago.[/color]

Hello Mac, this is my first post on here and I hope it is ok to just 'jump in'.

Perhaps you have identified the problem, there is so much 'noise' and gadgetry out there that we no longer stop and listen quietly. Society craves instant gratification, we are ever more moving towards material things.

I am 61 and have been in the Spiritualist movement since I was 15. It used to be a joy to go to church, I would leave there walking on air because the medium proved that life goes on. Now I rarely go because everything changed when the SNU stifled our wee church.

There doesn't seem to be the dedication to development that there once was, folk seem to think that if they do a couple of workshops they will be a medium in under a year! No -one seems to want to put in the time to develop. I have been sitting in a development circle for seven years, the same group, it never changes and we have had some wonderful results.

Ego seems to be a massive factor. These folk who profess to be physical mediums and who are nothing but charlatans spewing tasteless baubels from their mouths and claiming they are apports from spirit or sitting in a blacked out room and stuffing cheesecloth up their nose ( I jest not, I have been in the seance room when this has happened), do nothing to promote anything remotely spiritual in fact they bring the movement into disrepute. These individuals may well be putting off sincere seekers who are looking for direction that was once gotten from the churches, perhaps the decline in our churches is the reason we are now lacking those amazing mediums that I remember. The dreadful incidences I have witnessed would have put off anyone.

It is perhaps only because I am a stubborn lady that I am still in the movement today or perhaps it is because I have hope that those that seek to harm our movement will be ousted and that truth will prevail.

by mac Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:53 pm

Lammie wrote:
mac wrote:

At a time when modern technology enables us to communicate with folk around the world we find ourselves less able to provide evidence of survival through mediumship than was the situation half a century and more ago.[/color]

Lammie wrote:Hello Mac, this is my first post on here and I hope it is ok to just 'jump in'.

hello, Lammie, and welcome Of course it's OK to jump in and it's a pleasure to read something from a new member.

Lammie wrote:Perhaps you have identified the problem, there is so much 'noise' and gadgetry out there that we no longer stop and listen quietly. Society craves instant gratification, we are ever more moving towards material things.

I am 61 and have been in the Spiritualist movement since I was 15. It used to be a joy to go to church, I would leave there walking on air because the medium proved that life goes on. Now I rarely go because everything changed when the SNU stifled our wee church.

You have far more experience with the Spiritualist Church than I and have been 'in the spooks' way longer also. I 'flirted' with the church scene in my early days but even three decades ago I found it wasn't for me and I didn't need what it provided. Consequently I don't have experience of the SNU's impact.

Lammie wrote:There doesn't seem to be the dedication to development that there once was, folk seem to think that if they do a couple of workshops they will be a medium in under a year! No -one seems to want to put in the time to develop. I have been sitting in a development circle for seven years, the same group, it never changes and we have had some wonderful results.

It's good to hear that development groups are still working but, yes, I think what you've concluded is right. There's not a widespread desire or preparedness to sit for development but you can't make folk do what doesn't appeal.

Lammie wrote:Ego seems to be a massive factor. These folk who profess to be physical mediums and who are nothing but charlatans spewing tasteless baubels from their mouths and claiming they are apports from spirit or sitting in a blacked out room and stuffing cheesecloth up their nose ( I jest not, I have been in the seance room when this has happened), do nothing to promote anything remotely spiritual in fact they bring the movement into disrepute.

I think there are two issues in the opening of your last paragraph. Firstly ego - that's a hard one to sort out and potentially plagues any form of mediumship. But the second issue is simple fraud - those who are frauds may, or may not, have some 'ability' but don't deserve respect and do deserve condemnation. Fraud is fraud and is nothing to do with Spiritualism or the Spiritualist Church, of course! Frauds should be denounced and removed from the church network of mediums - all frauds whatever their claimed method of mediumship. It's not mediumship if it's fraudulent and those responsible for booking need to be on top of their role.

Lammie wrote:These individuals may well be putting off sincere seekers who are looking for direction that was once gotten from the churches, perhaps the decline in our churches is the reason we are now lacking those amazing mediums that I remember. The dreadful incidences I have witnessed would have put off anyone.

You're right that it might put off seekers and it would also put me off! It's sad that there aren't the mediums there once used to be but the decline has been happening - it seems - for quite some time so it may not be just an issue brought about by present-day life.

Lammie wrote: It is perhaps only because I am a stubborn lady that I am still in the movement today or perhaps it is because I have hope that those that seek to harm our movement will be ousted and that truth will prevail.

I hope you feel motivated to stick with the church you plainly love. I don't know how widespread the situation is of seeking to harm the Spiritualist movement. The frauds' impact will be severely curtailed if they're not allowed to perform on church premises. That's up to committees and presidents. As for truth, well that's still there in the philosophy but evidential mediumship must accompany teaching or we'll become as pointless as any other religion.

I hope I don't come over as lecturing - it's simply obvious to me although I totally accept I'm not part of the church and don't have to do any of what I'm advocating.

by hiorta Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Hi Lammie, I agree to a point on your diagnosis on lack of numbers. I have observed many folk over the years, once having had their life-changing evidence of surviving physical death simply choose to return to everyday Life with no desire to become personally involved beyond this.
We can never know just how deep and how many discuss the apparent changes in such an individual.

by Admin Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:47 pm

Hi Lammie and welcome. I think you can count me as one of the stubborn ones (as is Lis) We try , at the centre we have had a long involvement with to maintain standards but its tough because really good proof of survival Mediums are few and far between now we are trying and some new ones are on the way. We also have had xome good UK teachers and visitors like Irene McGilvray.

by Lammie Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:34 am

hiorta wrote: I have observed many folk over the years, once having had their life-changing evidence of surviving physical death simply choose to return to everyday Life with no desire to become personally involved beyond this.
We can never know just how deep and how many discuss the apparent changes in such an individual.

Perhaps that is the way of it in that the message given enables the recipient to 'get on with their life' and thats all it was ever meant to do. Those who develop a desire to learn more will stay. Perhaps we shouldn't expect those who have life changing messages to become involved? Some will of course and that is to be welcomed. What worries me is that if they do wish to develop there seems to be a lack of guidence on how they can do that.

The rise of Mediums in the media and their popularity has made communication with Spirit more accessible and shows that people are hungry for that communication. Whilst this has nothing to do with Spiritualism I do wonder if we are heading more towards that as the churches seem to be struggling. Of course that ugly old money rears it's head and I have heard many speak of this type of mediumship in a disparaging way but I wonder if perhaps we should accept that mediumship and where it is being delivered is merely changing? If someone who can give real evidental communication can reach 2000 people in an auditorium what is wrong with that?

Of course the problems lies in finding a 'good' medium i.e one that gives real evidence, names, dates, places etc rather that waffling. I saw a medium once who said to a really old lady 'your mother is in Spirit', pretty obvious going on the age of the recipient! Thats not evidence! Good mediums do exist, Tony Stockwell is one of them, watching him work as oppossed to a waffler and the difference is remarkable. Last year I went to see John Edward at the Apollo in London. I had seen him on the TV and had been impressed. I have also read that his shows are edited, he does cold reading, he is a fake etc etc. Our circle wanted to see for ourselves and to be honest going on some of the 'he's a fake' stories I was expecting to be disapointed but hoping I wouldn't be.

The theatre was packed to the rafters and the energy was buzzing. He certainly never waffled and got into reading immediately. He speaks really rapidly and starts off by taking a question. I guess that is his way of making a connection. He came straight to our group and gave three of us ( not myself) a reading and this is how I know he is so accurate because afterwards they were able to confirm what he had given them in more detail. One lady had been waiting for a loved one to come through for 15 years. John Edward was able to tell her that the guy had died in a car accident, that there were five of them in the car, the forenames and the surnames of three of them with accuracy, the fact that drugs/drink was involved, where it happened etc. He certainly could not have gotten that information in any other way than from Spirit. He certainly never asked any 'leading' questions, in fact he doesn't give you time to say very much apart from yes and no, if he is ever 'off' on something he works to get it right. He worked hard for a full Hour and a half giving lots of evidence.

What was interesting and perhaps someone can help me with this. Whilst he was on stage we could see what appeared to be his aura, he seemed to be bathed in a green light. As he got in to his stride and the messages were coming really rapidly the colour and the shape of this aura changed and at one point extended from his left hand side like a balloon. We all saw it independently as did others around us. Was it the lighting in the theatre we wondered? If it was it had no uniformity. My question is has anyone else ever seen this type of thing around a medium whilst they are working? I never had until last year. That aside his evidence was more than enough to convince any sceptic.

So perhaps we are moving away from churches and going towards mediums in the media. If that causes the churches to decline perhaps then the churches need to ask whether they need to evolve to accomodate those seeking to develop and to make their churches more welcoming. Or perhaps this is how it it meant to be, I believe Gordon Higginson predicted the end of churches and the rise of Centres in their place.

Just my thoughts

by mac Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:18 pm

It's easy to be parochial on this subject. Please remember that the Spiritualism with its churches and evidential mediums we know is peculiar to the UK. (as far as I can tell)

I am in contact with a fair number of American and a very small few of Aussie and Canuck individuals interested in survival and the so-called afterlife. For many of them a Spiritualist Church may be many hours away. The religion and philosophy of Modern Spiritualism appears to have little relevance for them - believe me, I've tried engaging about it!

What I'm increasingly aware of there is interest in NDEs, OBEs and diy communication with loved ones. Finding reputable mediums isn't easy for them and if they find one it can be an expensive exercise.

by mac Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:34 pm

Changing the subject slightly, you notice how few active members and threads there are?

Elsewhere I write on another website, a medically based one run by our association, that used to be well used and lively. Over the years I've been on it (I hope coincidentally!!!!) the number of active users has dropped away dramatically. I've learned that the association's Facebook page is, by contrast, totally the opposite. That's the place where folk go now.

I don't think there was ever an 'official' Spiritualist forum-based website but I wonder if there's a Facebook page for Spiritualism/Spiritualists where there are lots and lots of enthusiastic contributors?

yeah, right!

by Steve D Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:07 pm

Here in the States Spiritualism seems to me to be declining especially so the philosophy
and "religon" part of it. Unfortunately the medium messages are the main draw and not
so much anything else. Definitely not ones spiritual growth at least thats been my experience.
New age has filtered in also, pantheism,fairies,pixies etc!!!

Personally spoon bending, table tipping, etc., for me have or show little or no spiritual growth.
I dont think it will grow anymore, for the those who attend now seem to be pleased thats its an amusing show or "just something to do for the day". The church part is fading fast.
Your comment above about having no relevance for the majority is spot on!
As it goes I doubt if I will be attending a Spiritualist church on a regular basis, they are few and far here anyways and I sort understand that, given what the so called seekers want.
No much in deeper spiritual matters or personal growth.

by mac Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:41 pm

Steve D wrote:Here in the States Spiritualism seems to me to be declining especially so the philosophy
and "religon" part of it. Unfortunately the medium messages are the main draw and not
so much anything else. Definitely not ones spiritual growth at least thats been my experience.
New age has filtered in also, pantheism,fairies,pixies etc!!!

Personally spoon bending, table tipping, etc., for me have or show little or no spiritual growth.
I dont think it will grow anymore, for the those who attend now seem to be pleased thats its an amusing show or "just something to do for the day". The church part is fading fast.
Your comment above about having no relevance for the majority is spot on!
As it goes I doubt if I will be attending a Spiritualist church on a regular basis, they are few and far here anyways and I sort understand that, given what the so called seekers want.
No much in deeper spiritual matters or personal growth.

How sad Modern Spiritualism is so little represented in the US when it has its roots in Hydesville, NY.

But the current mainstream religious nature of American society would be unreceptive anyway to Spiritualist philosophy. And it may always have been that way - historians will know if that's the case.

Here in the UK we're blessed by there not being much interest in traditional religion, something for which I am grateful and maybe Henry VIII is to be most thanked for that. Laughing

by Admin Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:02 am

Lots of points to follow up on these posts but time seems to be eluding me.

My first Sunday away from the centre in many weeks and last until the Christmas break.

Where to go; as Mac and many others know we are in Aus, we were also writers for Psychic News in the latter years of the format pre the SNU's attemot to close it and acquire the title. Lis and I are very seriously involve in research on the history (Lis was part of the Psypioneer team) and in correcting the errors that have become attached to it. We are also deeply involved in the philosophy as teh threads on her will show. We are both mediums (and recognosed locally as very good proof of survival mediums) we facilitate development and Lis is running a mentoring group to aid new mediums on the platform. Lis is a deep trance medium and my skills have added on Table Tipping (which I accept could well be PK as that is what I use to facilitate spoon bending).

Last Monday I went back to table tipping in my group, which had only 4 attendees. It astonished me teh table was off in 3 minutes and at one point was nearly horizontal to the ground bouncing on each claw leg, dim white light not darkness or red light. Totally clumsy way to communicate but we had Spirit confirmation they were doing this. Went on to blindfold the participants and they gave a message (accurately) to each of the other attendees without knowing in any way the recipient. We have also been achieving an element of transfiguration without trance

All mediums are psychic but for whatever reason we all know that all Psychics are not mediums (probably ego and or an inability to cede control to Spirit even whilst sharing the time as in mental mediums). To teach we use psychic exercises to stretch peoples understanding (and spoon bending does just that) and ways to connect to Spirit. I also ensure they differentiate that the Mother they see could just be the projection of someones memory in the aura when they are thinking of the person. The reason is that many think they see Mother so she is there and they then link to you and all your memories of mother as you think of them. Its still a pretty good psychic party piece (which I have done once when I had a separate connection to Mother in Spirit who hated the photo the person selected) but its not mediumship.

Lis started in the 1970's(actually started earlier than that as a medium) and worked around a 28 church roster in teh 1980's when all mediums had to go direct and prove survival or be dropped from platform (there was a flow of good mediums being developed then). The modern throw information out was not good enough then because it can lead to the aboove type of psychic connection because the medium gets hooked on someones strong memories.

We still work that way although we try to start the connection, description ( especially the emotional link )before or immediately we reach the recipient. I did 7 messages last Sunday which wre described in the audience as brilliant and my being on fire. My philosophical talk was given to me by my main guide in inspirational form prior to teh meeting, I do this so I can type it up and evaluate the content to re check what is mine and the guides and ensure it makes sense. It did but it was a very challenging piece which I will put up on here later. Rarely my guide, who's name came about by me rejecting the Confucious name offered by a medium, did exist and has given me proof of it, indeed he was the Chinese Buddhist who created the concept of enlightenment in one lifetime.

So we still keep pushing and have at last a number of good developing younger mediums who have developed a greater interest in the philosophy as they become more involved.

Now this is in Aus and its tough, you never know what you will get from one centre to another, New Age Psychism or decent stuff. Additionally the number of good proof of survival mediums in Aus is very low. Talking to the Rev Marilyn Awtry (NSAC) an old friend tells me the USA is the same. Indeed she has trouble naming a medium from there who may be worth bringing to Aus (although thankfully she helped us bring the fantastic Rev Anne Gehman over at the start of 2007).

Are we still relevant is a hard question, in Aus to many centres would depress thinkers or those who arrived wanting a message after bereavement. Equally much of the Psychism and New Age is old school to youngsters who switch off from it. Indeed I had two 17/18 year olds book readings becasue they wanted proof of survival not the rubbish the psychics gave them They came accepted the readings as accurate and then went away never to be seen again.

I still feel ther is a place for us but not necessarily as a religous centre, although the mediumship and philosophy has to remain the core from which we offer activities; healing Self Development, etc. However there are not enough active years left for me to ensure this happens unless we get some kind of break through next year.

by obiwan Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:34 am

Lammie wrote:
hiorta wrote: I have observed many folk over the years, once having had their life-changing evidence of surviving physical death simply choose to return to everyday Life with no desire to become personally involved beyond this.
We can never know just how deep and how many discuss the apparent changes in such an individual.

Perhaps that is the way of it in that the message given enables the recipient to 'get on with their life' and thats all it was ever meant to do. Those who develop a desire to learn more will stay. Perhaps we shouldn't expect those who have life changing messages to become involved? Some will of course and that is to be welcomed. What worries me is that if they do wish to develop there seems to be a lack of guidence on how they can do that.

The rise of Mediums in the media and their popularity has made communication with Spirit more accessible and shows that people are hungry for that communication. Whilst this has nothing to do with Spiritualism I do wonder if we are heading more towards that as the churches seem to be struggling. Of course that ugly old money rears it's head and I have heard many speak of this type of mediumship in a disparaging way but I wonder if perhaps we should accept that mediumship and where it is being delivered is merely changing? If someone who can give real evidental communication can reach 2000 people in an auditorium what is wrong with that?

Of course the problems lies in finding a 'good' medium i.e one that gives real evidence, names, dates, places etc rather that waffling. I saw a medium once who said to a really old lady 'your mother is in Spirit', pretty obvious going on the age of the recipient! Thats not evidence! Good mediums do exist, Tony Stockwell is one of them, watching him work as oppossed to a waffler and the difference is remarkable. Last year I went to see John Edward at the Apollo in London. I had seen him on the TV and had been impressed. I have also read that his shows are edited, he does cold reading, he is a fake etc etc. Our circle wanted to see for ourselves and to be honest going on some of the 'he's a fake' stories I was expecting to be disapointed but hoping I wouldn't be.

The theatre was packed to the rafters and the energy was buzzing. He certainly never waffled and got into reading immediately. He speaks really rapidly and starts off by taking a question. I guess that is his way of making a connection. He came straight to our group and gave three of us ( not myself) a reading and this is how I know he is so accurate because afterwards they were able to confirm what he had given them in more detail. One lady had been waiting for a loved one to come through for 15 years. John Edward was able to tell her that the guy had died in a car accident, that there were five of them in the car, the forenames and the surnames of three of them with accuracy, the fact that drugs/drink was involved, where it happened etc. He certainly could not have gotten that information in any other way than from Spirit. He certainly never asked any 'leading' questions, in fact he doesn't give you time to say very much apart from yes and no, if he is ever 'off' on something he works to get it right. He worked hard for a full Hour and a half giving lots of evidence.

What was interesting and perhaps someone can help me with this. Whilst he was on stage we could see what appeared to be his aura, he seemed to be bathed in a green light. As he got in to his stride and the messages were coming really rapidly the colour and the shape of this aura changed and at one point extended from his left hand side like a balloon. We all saw it independently as did others around us. Was it the lighting in the theatre we wondered? If it was it had no uniformity. My question is has anyone else ever seen this type of thing around a medium whilst they are working? I never had until last year. That aside his evidence was more than enough to convince any sceptic.

So perhaps we are moving away from churches and going towards mediums in the media. If that causes the churches to decline perhaps then the churches need to ask whether they need to evolve to accomodate those seeking to develop and to make their churches more welcoming. Or perhaps this is how it it meant to be, I believe Gordon Higginson predicted the end of churches and the rise of Centres in their place.

Just my thoughts

Very interesting - thank you.

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