Gender values of the Redman

by hiorta Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:48 am

It wasn’t until Europeans took over North America that indigenous people adopted the ideas of gender roles.
For Native Americans, there was no set of rules that men and women had to abide by in order to be considered a “normal” member of their tribe.

In fact, people who had both female and male characteristics were viewed as gifted by nature and therefore, able to see both sides of everything. According to some, all native communities fully acknowledged the following gender roles: “Female, male, Two Spirit female, Two Spirit male and Transgendered.
The “Two Spirit” culture of Native Americans was one of the first things that Europeans decided to destroy and cover up. According to people like American -artist George Catlin, the Two Spirit tradition had to be eradicated before it could go into history books. Catlin said the tradition: Must be extinguished before it can be more fully recorded.”
However, it wasn’t only white Europeans that tried to hide any trace of native gender understanding. According to records, “Spanish Catholic monks destroyed most of the Aztec codices to eradicate traditional Native beliefs and history, including those that told of the Two Spirit tradition.”
Throughout these efforts by Christians, Native Americans were forced to dress and act according to newly designated gender roles.
One of the most celebrated Two Spirits in recorded history was a Lakota warrior aptly named Finds Them And Kills Them. Osh-Tisch was born a male and married a female, but adorned himself in women’s clothing and lived daily life as a female. On June 17 1876, Finds Them And Kills Them gained his reputation when he rescued a fellow tribesman during the Battle of Rosebud Creek in an act of fearless bravery. Below is a picture of Osh-Tisch and his wife.

Osh-Tisch (Left) and his wife (Right)
In Native American cultures, people were valued for their contributions to the tribe, rather than for masculinity or femininity. Parents did not assign gender roles to children either, and even children’s clothing tended to be gender neutral. There were no ideas or ideals about how a person should love; it was simply a natural act that occurred without judgment or hesitation.
Without a negative stigma attached to being a Two Spirit, there were no inner-tribal incidents of retaliation or violence toward the chosen people simply due to the fact that individuals identified as the opposite or both genders.
Two Spirit people in early Native America were highly revered and families that included them were considered lucky. Indians believed that anyone who could see the world simultaneously through the eyes of both genders was a gift from The Creator.
Religious influences soon brought serious prejudice against “gender diversity,” and so this forced once openly alternative or androgynous people to one of two choices. They could either live in hiding, and in fear of being found out, or they could end their lives. Many did just that.
Imagine a world where people allowed others to live freely as nature intended-without harm, without persecution, without shame. Imagine a world where we are truly free.

by hiorta Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:59 am

The modern world currently exercises itself - often lewdly - with the physical side of this equation, but little weight is placed on the spiritual ramifications it raises. Silver Birch did speak with his usual eloquence on the matter.
However, the constantly enlarging picture of human development and what is termed 'normal' - and by whom - again comes into focus. Are many of the people now being assessed and treated for gender abnormalities been assessed wrongly by well-intentioned folk barking up the wrong tree for a very long time? With drastic consequences for the beneficiaries.

by mac Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:49 pm

great pieces, hiorta! From where does that information come?

by hiorta Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:30 pm

I didn't keep it mac, although I still have the draft which I'll send to you.

by Admin Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:45 am

Really good Hiorta. here are a couple of pictures of Osh-Tisch.

Gender values of the Redman Osh_ti10

by Admin Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:55 am

There is more about it here http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html well worth a read.

I think this may give us a hint where Hiorta's original came from. http://the-numinous.com/native-american-two-spirits/

Difficult to know this is similar but contains more detail http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/01/23/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders

by mac Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:43 pm

thanks to you both, guys - Just back online after a few days away so I'll take a look at the links later Jim.

by mac Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:23 pm

Interesting links and even more interesting reaction posted at the end of the piece, a little of which is shown below (attributed to Redman James)

" Please stop misrepresenting native culture by spreading white homosexual colonialist propaganda and BS lies like this, by confused individuals who persecute and bully Elders and other natives who state the facts about the real traditions by calling them names to keep them silent. Are you going to start printing the fake Hopi prophecies and Elizabeth Warren's true story of being a Cherokee princess next? This was started by Harry Hay, a NAMBLA activist. It has nothing to do with native culture. Topic: Radical Faeries (Read 3505 times) educatedindian Posts: 4036 Radical Faeries « on: April 13, 2006, 05:29:07 pm » Found this group mentioned doing a search on Sams. Seems their late founder Harry Hays invented the term two spirit. One site mentioned his group the Radical Faeries do Native or what they think are Native rituals. http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/hay_h,3.html "Meetings of the Radical Faeries generally occur in rural settings, and their celebrations combine Native American and New Age elements. The first took place in the desert near Tucson, Arizona in September 1979. Since then the Radical Faeries movement has spread across the United States and also to Europe....Stuart Timmons published a biography, The Trouble with Harry Hay, in 1990, and a collection of Hay's writings, Radically Gay: Gay Liberation in the Words of Its Founder, appeared in 1996. When in 1999 the choice of grand marshal for San Francisco's Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender Pride Parade was put to a public vote for the first time, Hay was the winner. He was also the subject of Eric Slade's PBS documentary Hope along the Wind: The Life of Harry Hay (2002)"
Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/01/23/two-spirits-one-heart-five-genders"

by Admin Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:27 am

OK thanks Mac more urban myths then, I also note he is on the ball about Elizabeth Warren, one of the great creators of the New Age who's works (or creations in reality) are still being built upon.
However the picture of Osh Tisch is fascinating and there was a variety to Indian culture that I wish we could find the real story of, its a bit like the Aboriginal stories which have been sadly diminished because of the loss of different groups because of white invasion (I will not call it settlement the lands were already settled by people who's culture reflected their place and past. Australia has not faced up to the massacres that occurred. Dowsing someone's building plot the other day I found what would have been a waterhole on the corner, energetically a problem area but not critical to teh plans. However, I became extremely ill while standing on that place and took several days to recover I discovered later that teh early settlers had a lovely habit of poisoning indigenous water holes.

by mac Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:24 am

I'm often shocked hearing about Britain's behaviour in its Empire days. Interesting what you've told us about your dowsing experience, Jim. Have you had any other, similar experiences?

by Admin Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:52 am

Nothing quite like that Mac, I realised from the lie of the land it was a natural tribal camp site with water flow to that place where it would gather, above a flood area, before running off to a steep sided creek. the water would have been in that place almost year round.

Once in that spot I could feel a link to the Spirits, together with the physical impact of what happened, not pleasant. this is a culturally sensitive area. When we worked at an Aboriginal healing day our healers were OK but those of us reading had to have the Elders permission to contact the ancestors, at the second event the elders were the first for readings and we were the Spirit Talkers from the Rosa Tingey Mob (taken from the name of our building).
I have run into a few houses which have created shocks for a variety of reasons, affected much less by Spirit than the people or the natural energy lines. I have also run into one where the remote mapping of the energy lines showed that the way the beds were set up created a cancer risk, I was not surprised to find there had been 3 serious cancer cases.

I tend now to only work on houses on referral but they crop up almost monthly.

by mac Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:16 am

very interesting, Jim - thanks

by mac Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:33 pm

Admin wrote:Nothing quite like that Mac, I realised from the lie of the land it was a natural tribal camp site with water flow to that place where it would gather, above a flood area, before running off to a steep sided creek. the water would have been in that place almost year round.

Once in that spot I could feel a link to the Spirits, together with the physical impact of what happened, not pleasant. this is a culturally sensitive area. When we worked at an Aboriginal healing day our healers were OK but those of us reading had to have the Elders permission to contact the ancestors, at the second event the elders were the first for readings and we were the Spirit Talkers from the Rosa Tingey Mob (taken from the name of our building).
I have run into a few houses which have created shocks for a variety of reasons, affected much less by Spirit than the people or the natural energy lines. I have also run into one where the remote mapping of the energy lines showed that the way the beds were set up created a cancer risk, I was not surprised to find there had been 3 serious cancer cases.

I tend now to only work on houses on referral but they crop up almost monthly.

Hi Jim. I'd like to come back to the points you made above which have been rolling around in my thoughts today while I wondered how to relate to what you said. I hope you (or Lis) won't mind addressing a few (quite a few!) of my questions.

What do you make of the situation when you encounter an area like you described?

You say you felt a link to the spirits and felt a physical impact of historical events. Are those events 'recorded' in the physical location or in a 'higher', etheric dimension? Is it a 'ghost hunter' type of scenario with some kind of inanimate 'recording' of the events that you access?

Based on my limited understanding of Spiritualist fundamentals, on the healing day you mentioned, what is the reaction of elders to your reading activities? Would they resent someone white who could link to/communicate with their ancestors? Do you feel you actually did communicate with tribal ancestors and if so, were they distant or comparatively recently departed?

Do elders, you and your group members, all share a similar understanding of survival? Or is theirs very different, based on beliefs, culture, hierarchy and tradition? Is it unlike Spiritualism's simple (I think) approach?

by Admin Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:56 am

mac wrote:
Admin wrote:Nothing quite like that Mac, I realised from the lie of the land it was a natural tribal camp site with water flow to that place where it would gather, above a flood area, before running off to a steep sided creek. the water would have been in that place almost year round.

Once in that spot I could feel a link to the Spirits, together with the physical impact of what happened, not pleasant. this is a culturally sensitive area. When we worked at an Aboriginal healing day our healers were OK but those of us reading had to have the Elders permission to contact the ancestors, at the second event the elders were the first for readings and we were the Spirit Talkers from the Rosa Tingey Mob (taken from the name of our building).
I have run into a few houses which have created shocks for a variety of reasons, affected much less by Spirit than the people or the natural energy lines. I have also run into one where the remote mapping of the energy lines showed that the way the beds were set up created a cancer risk, I was not surprised to find there had been 3 serious cancer cases.

I tend now to only work on houses on referral but they crop up almost monthly.

Hi Jim. I'd like to come back to the points you made above which have been rolling around in my thoughts today while I wondered how to relate to what you said. I hope you (or Lis) won't mind addressing a few (quite a few!) of my questions.

What do you make of the situation when you encounter an area like you described? In honesty the basic feeling is of a residual energy, just as the common theory of apparitions. The events are so terrible they leave an energetic impact upon the area. Its like dowsing something like the Pilgrim's Way, all the people who have walked it, with deep feelings of the religious impact of their journey leave an energetic imprint. I think that, to some extent, anyone is capable of feeling this, for my part dowsing is an exercise of our innate intuition, our psychic skills, therefor I was wide open and experienced the impact more strongly. This is different to the contact I made to the Spirits of those who were there, which was mediumistic, entering a dialogue with them. I asked the people building on the block to treat this area with respect and plant something culturally appropriate as a memorium.

You say you felt a link to the spirits and felt a physical impact of historical events. Are those events 'recorded' in the physical location or in a 'higher', etheric dimension? Is it a 'ghost hunter' type of scenario with some kind of inanimate 'recording' of the events that you access? I suspect that the above explains this, because I have been trained as a dowser, trained to use my psychic abilities and then again learned how to be a medium I am aware of the nuances between what is me, what I am getting from the energies and when i am in touch with Spirit. I believe what we get mainly is an energy recording, I would guess people have experienced this in house hunting, the negativity within a house where there has been a bad marriage break up. Technically it should be possible to measure this energy I see the type of "ghost"people talk about, that performs the same action time after time as an energetic hologram. As to those who impact upon you, maybe a poltergeist of some kind (genuine not concocted) I think you are dealing with a Spirit that needs communication in some way (or more appropriately help from other Spirits)

Based on my limited understanding of Spiritualist fundamentals, on the healing day you mentioned, what is the reaction of elders to your reading activities? Would they resent someone white who could link to/communicate with their ancestors? Do you feel you actually did communicate with tribal ancestors and if so, were they distant or comparatively recently departed? The key to their belief is all departed are now ancestors, most of the communication was from loved one's they knew although the relationships are different to our experience. No, once they understood the respect we paid to our part as a medium of communication there was no resentment, they also loved teh Spiritual Healing it why we were bestowed the honorific The Rosa Tingey Mob

Do elders, you and your group members, all share a similar understanding of survival? Or is theirs very different, based on beliefs, culture, hierarchy and tradition? Is it unlike Spiritualism's simple (I think) approach? There are similarities, they accept continued existence but that is, of course, placed within their own cultural/historical boundaries, different "tribes may have different traditions the story of the Aboriginals is one of many cultures just as the North American Indians. Our thinking worked well for them, I think we overplay Spiritualism's simplicity sometimes to our detriment. It is one of the most complex simplicities in the world, we are the only group that acknowledge that everyone survives death regardless of your actions, belief, race, age and sex. As simple as it gets as an idea which we can prove; the complexity is in trying to let the world know of this and gain the acceptance of this truth in their own belief system (or non belief system) together with a philosophical basis behind this. Something we have been singularly unsuccessful with, yes a large proportion of people now accept life after death but the meaning of this is hardly ever considered with a bewildering array of philosophies, many pretty contradictory, behind peoples views of continued existence

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:21 am

Thanks for your responses, Jim. There's a lot of information that I found very interesting and illuminating.

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:59 pm

A few more ideas if you don't mind again offering your thoughts, Jim.

quote "Based on my limited understanding of Spiritualist fundamentals, on the healing day you mentioned, what is the reaction of elders to your reading activities? Would they resent someone white who could link to/communicate with their ancestors? Do you feel you actually did communicate with tribal ancestors and if so, were they distant or comparatively recently departed? The key to their belief is all departed are now ancestors, most of the communication was from loved one's they knew although the relationships are different to our experience. No, once they understood the respect we paid to our part as a medium of communication there was no resentment, they also loved teh Spiritual Healing it why we were bestowed the honorific The Rosa Tingey Mob"

Yes that was indeed an honour having your group recognised in that way.

When you 'spoke' with the ancestors of your hosts, did it feel any different from how it feels when you're communicating with discarnates of non-aboriginal sitters? Was language difference a problem or did communication happen in other ways?

I'm curious too about how the discarnates reacted to a white guy reaching out to them when - presumably - they're used to tribal elders doing it. Did your contacts express any surprise etc about that or were they aware in advance what was to happen?

Was communication 'free-form' or was there a hierarchy over who could send, or accept, evidential messages? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand and compare how different things may be from the Spiritualist way of communication where anyone can 'speak' to anyone if conditions are favourable.

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:42 pm

I take your point about Spiritualism's 'complex simplicity'. I suppose Spiritualist philosophy became familiar to me over a number of years and many once-puzzling things have little-by-little fallen into place. I'm the first to admit, though, that I'm far from an expert!

Really, though, it's Spiritualism's fundamentals of survival and communication through mediumship that - for me - seem so simple compared with some of the gobbledygook and weird notions I see being discussed on some so-called spiritual websites. Of course one can investigate way beyond the fundamentals of survival etc but just grasping that basic is something that seems to fox some forum members. And for them 'spirit' means something wholly different from what it means for me.

I try to be accepting that others have abilities I don't, can experience situations and maybe understand ideas I probably never will, but it's hard sometimes not to figuratively shake my head and think to myself "What a lot of nonsense." (putting it politely!)

Over several years I've discussed and debated survival and afterlife issues on quite a few websites, with members who frequently have absolutely no grasp of Spiritualism's simple teachings. Their beliefs are often based on a mish-mash of stories of NDE and the ideas of modern day authors, psychics, sensitives, phenomenalists and channellers.

Sometimes, some of their ideas are in line with our Spiritualist persuasion but at other times I am baffled at how jumbled and fanciful some of the ideas are.

by Admin Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:09 am

mac wrote:I take your point about Spiritualism's 'complex simplicity'. I suppose Spiritualist philosophy became familiar to me over a number of years and many once-puzzling things have little-by-little fallen into place. I'm the first to admit, though, that I'm far from an expert!

Really, though, it's Spiritualism's fundamentals of survival and communication through mediumship that - for me - seem so simple compared with some of the gobbledygook and weird notions I see being discussed on some so-called spiritual websites. Of course one can investigate way beyond the fundamentals of survival etc but just grasping that basic is something that seems to fox some forum members. And for them 'spirit' means something wholly different from what it means for me.

I try to be accepting that others have abilities I don't, can experience situations and maybe understand ideas I probably never will, but it's hard sometimes not to figuratively shake my head and think to myself "What a lot of nonsense." (putting it politely!)

Over several years I've discussed and debated survival and afterlife issues on quite a few websites, with members who frequently have absolutely no grasp of Spiritualism's simple teachings. Their beliefs are often based on a mish-mash of stories of NDE and the ideas of modern day authors, psychics, sensitives, phenomenalists and channellers.

Sometimes, some of their ideas are in line with our Spiritualist persuasion but at other times I am baffled at how jumbled and fanciful some of the ideas are.

Amen to that Mac at times I wonder why we try to persuade people when far to many seem to love the jumbled and fanciful. I have also become so aware that within that arena many make a good living as psychic mediums when their skills as a psychic are their own conscious or subconscious mind(used deliberately for gain or inadvertently because they do not understand what they do or there is a mental condition which supplies their answers) and their mediumship is just an extension of that. In an environment which follows more tightly to Spiritualism with experienced people their weaknesses tend to show, sadly that type of environment is becoming fewer. The end result is educated observers can decry "communication"all to easily. Running a centre I feel a lot like King Canute; is their a point you stop and are forced to act against psychic mediumship in general because of the very real harm some of the charlatans can inflict, either by the "messages" or the very weird philosophies they embrace? Maybe its time for a new thread.

by Admin Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:27 am

When you 'spoke' with the ancestors of your hosts, did it feel any different from how it feels when you're communicating with discarnates of non-aboriginal sitters? Was language difference a problem or did communication happen in other ways? No there was no real problem especially if I focused on not interfering with the communication, indeed these communicators were very good at it. Being a multicultural country I do readings for a variety of nationalities, some more challenging than others, I find my lack of Italian far more challenging.

I'm curious too about how the discarnates reacted to a white guy reaching out to them when - presumably - they're used to tribal elders doing it. Did your contacts express any surprise etc about that or were they aware in advance what was to happen? To be honest i found that they realised it was another Spirit providing the link and teh race was not important, I am unsure that they are regularly communicating

Was communication 'free-form' or was there a hierarchy over who could send, or accept, evidential messages? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand and compare how different things may be from the Spiritualist way of communication where anyone can 'speak' to anyone if conditions are favourable.[/color] It was free form albeit I did notice that, once communication was established a more senior older relative may step up to offer more philosophical advice [/quote]

by mac Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:39 am

Admin wrote:
mac wrote:I take your point about Spiritualism's 'complex simplicity'. I suppose Spiritualist philosophy became familiar to me over a number of years and many once-puzzling things have little-by-little fallen into place. I'm the first to admit, though, that I'm far from an expert!

Really, though, it's Spiritualism's fundamentals of survival and communication through mediumship that - for me - seem so simple compared with some of the gobbledygook and weird notions I see being discussed on some so-called spiritual websites. Of course one can investigate way beyond the fundamentals of survival etc but just grasping that basic is something that seems to fox some forum members. And for them 'spirit' means something wholly different from what it means for me.

I try to be accepting that others have abilities I don't, can experience situations and maybe understand ideas I probably never will, but it's hard sometimes not to figuratively shake my head and think to myself "What a lot of nonsense." (putting it politely!)

Over several years I've discussed and debated survival and afterlife issues on quite a few websites, with members who frequently have absolutely no grasp of Spiritualism's simple teachings. Their beliefs are often based on a mish-mash of stories of NDE and the ideas of modern day authors, psychics, sensitives, phenomenalists and channellers.

Sometimes, some of their ideas are in line with our Spiritualist persuasion but at other times I am baffled at how jumbled and fanciful some of the ideas are.

Amen to that Mac at times I wonder why we try to persuade people when far to many seem to love the jumbled and fanciful. I have also become so aware that within that arena many make a good living as psychic mediums when their skills as a psychic are their own conscious or subconscious mind(used deliberately for gain or inadvertently because they do not understand what they do or there is a mental condition which supplies their answers) and their mediumship is just an extension of that. In an environment which follows more tightly to Spiritualism with experienced people their weaknesses tend to show, sadly that type of environment is becoming fewer. The end result is educated observers can decry "communication"all to easily. Running a centre I feel a lot like King Canute; is their a point you stop and are forced to act against psychic mediumship in general because of the very real harm some of the charlatans can inflict, either by the "messages" or the very weird philosophies they embrace? Maybe its time for a new thread.

quote: "Amen to that Mac at times I wonder why we try to persuade people when far to many seem to love the jumbled and fanciful." I've long-since given up even presenting an argument for consideration let alone trying to persuade anyone of the value (as I see it) of Spiritualist philosophy. The gulf between what I've learned and the beliefs of most others appears so vast that I may as well be speaking in a foreign language.

On the desirability of starting a new thread there's only thee and me saying anything anyway but we are now somewhat off-topic and I agree a new thread would be more appropriate if the conversation were to be continued. We've probably said all there is to say on this old chestnut though. Wink

by mac Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:39 am

Admin wrote:

When you 'spoke' with the ancestors of your hosts, did it feel any different from how it feels when you're communicating with discarnates of non-aboriginal sitters? Was language difference a problem or did communication happen in other ways? No there was no real problem especially if I focused on not interfering with the communication, indeed these communicators were very good at it. Being a multicultural country I do readings for a variety of nationalities, some more challenging than others, I find my lack of Italian far more challenging.

I'm curious too about how the discarnates reacted to a white guy reaching out to them when - presumably - they're used to tribal elders doing it. Did your contacts express any surprise etc about that or were they aware in advance what was to happen? To be honest i found that they realised it was another Spirit providing the link and teh race was not important, I am unsure that they are regularly communicating

Was communication 'free-form' or was there a hierarchy over who could send, or accept, evidential messages? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand and compare how different things may be from the Spiritualist way of communication where anyone can 'speak' to anyone if conditions are favourable.[/color] It was free form albeit I did notice that, once communication was established a more senior older relative may step up to offer more philosophical advice

[/quote]

thanks for this, Jim

by hiorta Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:53 am

Great and interesting points, gentlemen. Many thanks to you both.

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