Re: Swedish Medium Caught Cheating Part two Light

by zerdini Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 am

Quiet wrote:
light of truth wrote:physical mediumship when witnessed at its best is a truly wondrous gift. heavy tables levitating and spinning at an incredibly fast rate up at ceiling height, direct voice, little toddlers appearing in the seance room running around playing and coming up to touch and hug with their little hands, and ultimately materialisation! people materialising from the other side and conversing with loved ones in a foreign language together (bear in mind the medium could only speak english!), and these two people chatted away in this foreign language :-) now that is truly wonderful! i am blessed to have witnessed all this. i accept fraud is unacceptable but true genuine physical phenomena does exist today!

I read about physical mediumship in Maurice Barbanell's book on spiritualism and also in some of Arthur Findlay's material. I live in the colonies though and we are not, perhaps, so advanced. Or if there are groups where this happens, I don't know about them. My teacher experiences transformation sometimes but I have not actually seen this.

Thanks for the reply

What is transformation?

by zerdini Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:10 am

light of truth wrote:Quiet, you talk with wisdom. Zerdini, im not here to make claims, i just said what i have witnessed in over 2 decades! if you sat with the said medium, you would see the same but as you obviously have not seen such then you do not have the access to see phenomena on that level or access to such mediums. I have been truly blessed and for that i am grateful to spirit. i am still blessed to witness the wonderful phenomena of genuine physical mediumship. Blessings to you all x

But you did make claims!

How do you know what I have experienced over the past six decades?

You have not produced any evidence to back up your assertions. It could just be imagination on your part. Anyone could state what you did. If you look at the history of physical mediumship investigators were never reluctant to publish their findings.

by zerdini Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 am

Quiet wrote:One more comment about proof of survival, Spiritualism isn't just about that. The trance revelations from spirits such as Ramadahn, Chan, Silver Birch and others contain information about living that you can see in all the great philosophies.

I have just been reading some material from Silver Birch which is a simple explanation of the quite complex idea of karma. In fact Silver Birch almost says that the Higher Power is Karma but I'm simplifying that terribly I suspect.

Another thing, people sitting in a circle over periods of time, who know each other, would not necessarily require the same evidential proof all the time.

Even with my limited experience, I've been given messages which come almost as asides but contain meaning which is unique to me. Some of it has not been 'evidential' in the concrete way.

I guess in a way I'm responding to Lis' suggestion that physical phenomena is not necessarily proof of survival. That may be so on occasion but it is hard to make a set of principles apply to every situation.

I have spoken to the guides you mention above, Quiet, which is better than just reading about them in books. I was able to question them in detail about their statements.

I have also sat in a physical circle when Barbanell was present so I can confirm that his recording of events was completely accurate.

by Quiet Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:27 am

zerdini wrote:

I have spoken to the guides you mention above, Quiet, which is better than just reading about them in books. I was able to question them in detail about their statements.

I have also sat in a physical circle when Barbanell was present so I can confirm that his recording of events was completely accurate.

You're very fortunate, Zerdini. I would love to have had those experiences.

by mac Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:51 am

light of truth wrote:this is however the first time i have encountered differences in being spiritualist...lol. i find this a very interesting concept to grasp :-)

I've wasted much effort elsewhere, often experiencing considerable hostility, trying to explain why Spiritualism (in forums entitled 'Spiritualism') isn't the same as spiritualism and/or spirituality meaning to do with being spiritual etc. This is a frequent problem because all manner of topics can get dumped in forums which are intended for Spiritualist ones.

Using capital 'S' in Spiritualism is my feeble-minded attempt to differentiate the former from the latter.

by mac Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:02 am

"It may be a crass example, but I cannot help thinking of the'dodgy' car salesman. If you buy a car, and it turns out to be a dud with all sorts of hidden defects, and the man you brought it from knew it and deliberately cheated you out of your money by selling you the car, would you really want to go back and buy a second car from them? I rather think you would go elsewhere and prefer to deal with a reputable car dealer."
Lis

I think that's an excellent analogy, Lis......

by mac Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:31 am

"One more comment about proof of survival, Spiritualism isn't just about that. The trance revelations from spirits such as Ramadahn, Chan, Silver Birch and others contain information about living that you can see in all the great philosophies."

Agreed - Spiritualism isn't just about survival but principally it is; that and communication through mediumship showing evidence of the principle.

It doesn't have to be any more than that to be Spiritualism but I do agree that it can lead on to a deeper, broader understanding, an understanding of LIFE itself - not simply about physical death and survival beyond it.

by hiorta Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:42 am

That has been my understanding of the underlying purpose of Spirit return.

by obiwan Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:17 pm

Quiet wrote:
obiwan wrote:But you are making claims. Claims about the phenomena you have witnessed and what it means.

Obiwan, I think we all do this to some extent. It is natural to attribute meaning to what one sees.

In terms of physical phenomena, those people who sat in the circles that Findlay and Barbanell documented would have felt the same as light of truth. My first teacher is a wonderful trance medium and I used to feel an immense sense of happiness and privilege when she spoke in trance in our circle. Sometimes she would have a question and answer session where we could ask personal questions and I used to leave these sessions feeling very moved.

It's OK to express joy about what one experiences. As we grow spiritually I think that what gives us joy might change. I have been mentally documenting my own progression in life and since I discovered some of the fundamentals which Spiritualism teaches and I can see those crests of happiness and achievement. There have also been huge troughs, close to despair. But I've realised over this holiday period that I must progress towards something else, something to do with the internal peace which requires a much more fundamental consistency in attitudes and practice. I wasn't ready for that in the early days of my association with spiritualism. I think I am ready for that now but know also that those crests of joy might need to become deep currents from discipline and hard work and, to be honest, I'd prefer that.

It is really just about progression and which applies to everyone.

So I think there is absolutely nothing questionable about circles who use physical phenomena, just as long as they don't sensationalise it or become untrustworthy with it. These sorts of things used to happen quite regularly in the early days of my current teachers mediumship but they were in private circles and just became part of ordinary practice. The documentation exists already in the works of Barbanell and others.

We get into trouble when money is concerned and people use their gifts or skills to seek public recognition and the money that often comes with it. We get into trouble when people think they know more than they do and seek to become public figures or gurus, small and large. It's a little like the recovered alcoholic or drug addict who seeks a job in rehab. clinic in his first few months of sobriety.

Some of us may encounter negative experiences along the way (I have) but we just have to pick ourselves up and keep looking for what is right for us. Jane Lyzell will have to do that as well, and others affected by this man.

I think the big things happen in small ways, so small that we sometimes miss them. I am right now re reading Ursula Roberts' autobiography, 'Living in Two Worlds', and she discusses just this kind of process. Silver Birch says something similar: that Spirit will guide us. Sometimes I think some of us try to take over the reins when there is not even a horse beneath us. To make an appalling joke - that only leads to nightmares. The Swedish man has found himself in such a nightmare.

Hi Quiet

I have no problem with people making claims. It is then necessary, if one wishes to have them taken seriously, to offer more background information about them. The point I was making was that the poster said specifically that they were not making claims, which appeared inconsistent to me.

by zerdini Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:27 pm

Quiet wrote:
zerdini wrote:

I have spoken to the guides you mention above, Quiet, which is better than just reading about them in books. I was able to question them in detail about their statements.

I have also sat in a physical circle when Barbanell was present so I can confirm that his recording of events was completely accurate.

You're very fortunate, Zerdini. I would love to have had those experiences.

It is very useful to speak from personal experience, Quiet. Very Happy

by Quiet Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:23 pm

This thread has wandered a bit and it is a bit hard to keep track of it all.

I hadn't read all the way back to the beginning of this thread when I made my first response to Light of Truth but I don't back away from anything I've said. LOT made an emotional response to perceived judgements of the fraudulent Swedish medium and the response to his post was a bit stiff necked (sorry, Jim and others, but that is how it appeared to me). It went on from there and people did seem to get away from the point a bit. All grist for the mill and the words should be let go now.

It is really hard to discern the genuine motivations of people in internet forums. That is why we have to be so careful. An emotional or stiff necked response in a place like this doesn't indicate much about who a person actually is or what is driving their response.

I agree that fraudulent mediumship should be discouraged - have said all that - but I have reservations about the public naming and shaming. It is SO public these days, world-wide in fact, and can be quite unbounded and vicious. I also have reservations about performing mediumship for large amounts of money. I know that's another subject and has itself all sorts of complications.

I am relatively new to spiritualism but I love what it has given to me. I left the church I attended here just because of terrible judgements of people and hugely public and damaging fights. There was ignorance, mental cruelty and narrow-mindedness. There was no fraudulence. The management system was badly set up and let everyone down when a safe structure was needed. People became almost feral. In the end the fight was not about truth but about who was 'right'. 'Right' was simply a matter of opinion and who held power. As a long time professional in community organisations I am quite used to seeing these kind of destructive events. They are usually more about power than service and principle.

I've learned from some particularly regrettable personal mistakes about how wrong strongly held beliefs can be and how devastating this can be for individuals and groups. To qualify this comment, my worst misjudgements were made earlier in my professional career. I don't believe I was wrong in my assessment of what went wrong in the spiritualist church here but I was silly to let it affect me so much, to get caught up in useless battles again. These things draw us away from ourselves.

I was fortunate to have some really good experiences with some strong mediums before and after this happened - so I have had some direct contact, Zerdini Smile

. Not as extensive as many here, perhaps, but quite thrilling none the less. For the rest, I've had to rely on reading but it has been excellent reading. We each have to make do with what is available and. yes, our own wisdom and experience.

Dissension is not uncommon but can be particularly intense in metaphysical groups because of the lack of boundaries and the the personal nature of spiritual experience and belief. Just last night I read in Ursula Roberts' autobiography of strong and bitter disagreement between the Spiritualists and the Theosophists about reincarnation at the time when she was a young woman finding her own way around. She writes quite humorously about it. I am sure we can each tell similar stories but here, at least, we don't have get too caught up in something over which we have little ultimate control. We can extend sympathy to Jane and those who were hurt by this experience and compassion to the medium and those who work with him. The reality is that he has blown his credibility and will have to live with that.

by Admin Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:50 pm

Sorry Quiet but I do not believe we are stiff knecked just trying to ensure Spiritualism remains true to its real Principles and the underlying truth required of Mediumship, genuine proof of survival.

Cheating has no place neither does the excitement of telekinetic effects. I teach spoon bending to show how this works, to my students, so that they have some direct experience of how Messrs Cox and Crookes Psychic Force works. It is vital that people wishing to do work at a psychic level and then as a medium understand these issues clearly. It is a failure to ensure teaching is structured in this way that leads to the huge drop off in mediumship so that the norm is psychism, a mis matched blend.

When you mention trance teachings such as Silver Birch you touch on a area where, within the whole history of Spiritualism, there have been few teachings of that quality which remain, by and large, valid through their entirity. Sadly they remain like jewels in the night sky. One of our biggest problems at the moment are the new age channellers bringing all kinds of so called "wisdom" to the world.

I am more than happy to wear a neck brace for my stiff neck to stand up for traditional Modern Spiritualism against New Age Psychism and any tolerance of fraudulent mediumship which pats them on the back allowing them tio work immediately again taking money.

Yes maybe Wes's comments about posters coming on to insinuate themselves causing dissent is right about Light of Truth, his post has been highly effective in just that way.

In fact Quiet whilst this forum encourages the right to speak the Forum is about Modern Spiritualism, the real and valid movement that exists still, albeit rarely seen nowadays as such in Australia.

As a movement we are often told to get with it and take onboard new ideas and beliefs accept new ways. Why? the Spiritualism I met was really good, the modern new age spiritualism is intellectually damaged, too willing to forget to use its intelligence and discernment in accepting some of the weirdest ideas I have ever seen.

It would be much easier to go with the flow but if we do, eventually, there will be very little deeply moving proof of survival mediumship anywhere, indeed nothing that even remembers what Spiritualism is.

by Quiet Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:26 pm

Jim, perhaps we just see the dynamics of the discussion differently. It really doesn't matter. I didn't actually see LOT promoting New Age Psychism or the like - just suggesting a different attitude to the miscreant medium. He acknowledged the fraudulence but thought it was OK for the man to keep on working, but I could be wrong with my recollection and I am not going back to look - it is too long a thread for such a small issue. I actually don't think the Swedish medium should keep on working as a medium, by the way.

I agree with you that the quality of mediumship today seems to be not as good as in the past, especially in the times where Spiritualism was in its prime. I was somewhat horrified to hear a speaker at one spiritualist meeting quoting an American channeller that it was somehow OK that a father sexually abused his daughter. The purpose of that was apparently that she needed to learn forgiveness. That seems a bit warped to me. I've been on a few US forums where people claim to be more spiritually involved and promote the same sort of stuff.

If you explore the history of religions and philosophies you can see these sorts of debates and regrets cropping up all over the place. It seems to be part of the human thing. It is how we handle it that matters. When you work in this area or have an interest in it, it can seem bigger than it is.

On a world scale, Spiritualism was always minute but hugely important to those it touched. It seemed to flower best after both wars in the 20th century when there was such a need for solace. The spiritualist churches of that era which still exist do immense good. It is also hard work to keep a forum like this going and I am grateful that you and Lis both do this as well.

Perhaps we each have to do our best and trust that we will be guided to where we will be most useful.

by light of truth Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:26 am

i do not have 6 decades as i am not that old. there is no imagination on my part. i state what i do because it is the truth of what i have witnessed and still do. and i am not on here to be tried or to prove myself to anybody. neither am i here to produce evidence to sceptics or likewise. i have my path of light and you have your part different to mine. iv had my proof and am still having my proof so i am truly blessed.

by zerdini Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:19 am

light of truth wrote:i do not have 6 decades as i am not that old. there is no imagination on my part. i state what i do because it is the truth of what i have witnessed and still do. and i am not on here to be tried or to prove myself to anybody. neither am i here to produce evidence to sceptics or likewise. i have my path of light and you have your part different to mine. iv had my proof and am still having my proof so i am truly blessed.

In other words you cannot produce any evidence to back up your assertions!

That is of no help to anyone l-o-t.

by obiwan Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:41 pm

zerdini wrote:
light of truth wrote:i do not have 6 decades as i am not that old. there is no imagination on my part. i state what i do because it is the truth of what i have witnessed and still do. and i am not on here to be tried or to prove myself to anybody. neither am i here to produce evidence to sceptics or likewise. i have my path of light and you have your part different to mine. iv had my proof and am still having my proof so i am truly blessed.

In other words you cannot produce any evidence to back up your assertions!

That is of no help to anyone l-o-t.

Quite so. If one isn't prepared to discuss details and evidence, it is a virtually worthless comment. What is the point in mentioning it at all one wonders...

by light of truth Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:06 pm

the point? to let you know i have witnessed true physical phenomena. may be a worthless comment to sceptics and those who do not see the light? that is not for me to know. to discuss details and evidence on a public forum on the world web to satisfy the curiousity or scrutiny of one or two-now that is what i would class as worthless. i am not here to help you on your pathway. i walk mine. mine is blessed in that physical phenomena is part of it, so i walk in thel ight and feel like im walking on air today after the most wonderful seance 24hrs ago. it is not my place to publicize or expose evidence from very private circles. suffice for my spirit to say the genuine phenomena does exist. if it is yours to see, then you will. as for me, i am very happy to say one hundred percent spirit does truly manifest in the seance room today. Blessings x

by obiwan Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:16 am

It is pointless because you are giving testimony and we have no idea who you are or what value to ascribe to your claims. What is the point in acquiring knowledge and not sharing it - I am sure you can see that your statements are of little use to those who do not know you and since you refuse to discuss the details, it is impossible to determine whether they are likely to be true or whether you are another poseur. I am not saying you are - just that there is no way to know. Hence your comments as they stand are pointless.

If you can't see why your approach devalues the point in communicating what you are alleging happened - there's no helping you.

by light of truth Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:00 am

knowledge is not for everyone. i have only posted what i have witnessed, i am under no obligation to name names or cirlces etc. my comments are not useless as we are not on here just to provide proof to those who lack it. we are also on here to share our experiences. that is what i have done and do- share my experiences. as to providing you proof, that is for you to search of your own accord. iv had mine and still do this day. i cannot help everyone most especially people on the internet. i share my experiences but i dont need to publish names and places. i dont allege. it happened and happens. theres no helping me? lol Smile

i do not need and have never asked for help online and will not ask for help, i have my guide for that. Blessings to you all x

by obiwan Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:28 am

You posted what you say you saw. I don't believe you.

by light of truth Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:46 am

lol. you dont stop...do you? you keep your disbelief and il keep my path of knowledge and light. Blessings to you and all x

by obiwan Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:58 am

You have given me no reason to believe you. A shower of blessings on you too. Lol

by light of truth Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:16 am

lol. you dont stop...do you? i dont need to give you reason to believe me. im not even on here to gain converted believers....lol Very Happy

your pathway of disbelief is yours to walk. my pathway of light and knowledge and truth is mine to walk.
likewise...a shower of blessings on you too and may the light of spirit shine brightly on you x

by obiwan Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:31 am

Sorry my light and blessing dispenser is empty, however I would say that if you are not prepared to discuss the nature of ur experiences you're simply stimulating yourself emotionally posting in the way you have. This isn't about converting 'unbelievers' it's about the search for knowledge to which you appear to be contributing precisely squat despite the fact you are saying you know so much.

<love and light to be inserted when supplies become available>

by light of truth Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:12 am

i dont know who you are and as such will not divulge personal information which concerns others even though it is regarding physical mediumship. i say i know as much as i know due to what i have seen and witnessed over 2 decades and still am. i contribute as much as i can without giving personal names etc. that is where i have stopped. if you want to know more then sit with some well known genuine physical mediums...and you never know...we might meet there. so if giving personal info is what you perceive as contributing then sorry that you will not get. but my experiences i will share. your love and light may be depleted, mine isnt. Blessings x

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