Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

by LeroyC Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:26 pm

Hi All,

Well, 'don't like frauds' if his next 'show' is in Basel I wonder if my friend Dr Hans Shayer will be in attendance ??. He is no fool, and a very experienced investigator. Don't know if Hans has contributed on here, but would love his input as I have lost touch for some time now. I think the Basel group again will not put up with any messing about...it will be interesting to see. If I was them I would cancel it.

LeroyC

by obiwan Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:04 pm

mac wrote:

If it's not authentic, of course, it's simply fraud and trickery.

Or delusion... Very Happy

by mac Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:49 pm

obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:

If it's not authentic, of course, it's simply fraud and trickery.
Or delusion...

Yes I suppose he may genuinely be deluded - takes all kinds to make a world... Smile

by obiwan Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:52 pm

mac wrote:
obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:

If it's not authentic, of course, it's simply fraud and trickery.
Or delusion...

Yes I suppose he may genuinely be deluded - takes all kinds to make a world...

Amen to that.

by Mark74 Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:50 pm

I read this quote today in a spiritualist pamphlet, I think it is only fitting to mention it:

''For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.''

by obiwan Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:21 pm

Mark74 wrote:I read this quote today in a spiritualist pamphlet, I think it is only fitting to mention it:

''For all that is secret will eventually be brought into the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.''

Hear hear.

by baumer7 Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:00 pm

Hi Lis,
I'll find this out eventually (if he's coming to the U.S. to teach at my friend's center.) My "friend" wasn't too thrilled with me telling her she had her "head in the sand" in regards to this guy. I sent her the Nahm read & she said she felt sorry for the guy.(Nahm) WOW, did she get defensive!
Generally speaking, I can see people going to see the "show"...once. No need after that!
Regards,
Steve

by Lis Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:38 pm

Hi Steve,

It is sad when people who are so enthusiastic about physical mediumship that they become blinded to all doubts or concerns expressed. Mr Nahm's report was about as fair and reasoned as any I have seen. If your "friend" is unable to discern that, they are truly deluding themselves. As the old saying goes, "There are none so blind as will not see."

Perhaps you are right that people may go once to see the "show" - which might be alright, if, that is, it has been appropriately advertised as that, a "show" - a performance - an entertainment - not the work of spirit.

by Lis Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:30 pm

It seems that 'don't-like-frauds' has removed all his posts because he did not like having one of them edited because it made claims and insinuated conduct about a person and an organisation that Admin considered inflammatory.

Personally, I am not sure what they think they have achieved by this action, other than appearing to undermine the legitimacy of their claims.

by mac Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:47 pm

Lis wrote:It seems that 'don't-like-frauds' has removed all his posts because he did not like having one of them edited because it made claims and insinuated conduct about a person and an organisation that Admin considered inflammatory.

Personally, I am not sure what they think they have achieved by this action, other than appearing to undermine the legitimacy of their claims.

Oh! That's a puzzle, Lis, but I'm also puzzled when you say "they" in connection with 'don't-like-frauds'.... Wasn't it just one person?

Seems he was overly-sensitive given the amount he'd already posted - editing to avoid problems is surely acceptable and what we sign up to accept anyway? Whatever, we've lost a lot of interesting information, the potential for more and his developing relationship with your website.

Takes all kinds....

by Admin Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:51 pm

Lis wrote:It seems that 'don't-like-frauds' has removed all his posts because he did not like having one of them edited because it made claims and insinuated conduct about a person and an organisation that Admin considered inflammatory.

Personally, I am not sure what they think they have achieved by this action, other than appearing to undermine the legitimacy of their claims.

That is a very unfortunate action Don't Like Frauds has taken Lis. The evidence he had given about Kai and his purported "mediumship" was quite damning, indeed it was a compelling case but people cannot see it now. It may have appeared to DLF that nothing much was happening but then that is the nature of a forum. However, effectiveness cannot be judged by the number of people who contribute but the number who see it. There have been 5,000 visits to this thread which shows a phenomenal level of interest. I am also aware that some who may contribute are actually frightened of Kai and what he could do.

Sadly it seems to late to restore this and we will just leave the bits that we have in quotes on other people's posts. The loss of the pictures of Kai with "Spirit Lights" that are obviously the d'lite flights is, however, sad as it was a key piece in the writing to justify the words.

In some ways though DLF was on the verge of undoing his good work by extending his comments about others, still connected to Kai, in a way that was not justifiable on the evidence we have, indeed almost in an inflammatory manner which could lead people into adversarial positions where the facts become ignored. Had the material been presented simply and kept as factual as possible it would have been even more powerful. I can understand DLF's anger about being duped and treated adversely after several years in the Felix Group, especially as he had such a clear knowledge of the tricks Kai was using. He was very brave to post on here and it took much courage. I do hope his material will re appear but pared very much back to the provable factual issues which make his evidence against Kai so compelling.

Jim

by mac Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:58 pm

hiorta wrote:"The basis of mediumship is to prove the continuity of life"...Mark

Without this there is no Mediumship.
It is the entire purpose of Mediumship.

Our philosophy rests on on it.
Spiritualism is yet another theory without it.

That's what I've said repeatedly in the past but nowadays I'm left in no doubt that many reject such ideas and don't accept 'my' explanation of mediumship. For them mediumship is altogether different and any explanation or definition isn't, of course, set in stone other than in Modern Spiritualism, something that many see as quaint and irrelevant if they're aware there's any such thing anyway!

by mac Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:04 am

Admin wrote:
Lis wrote:It seems that 'don't-like-frauds' has removed all his posts because he did not like having one of them edited because it made claims and insinuated conduct about a person and an organisation that Admin considered inflammatory.

Personally, I am not sure what they think they have achieved by this action, other than appearing to undermine the legitimacy of their claims.

That is a very unfortunate action Don't Like Frauds has taken Lis. The evidence he had given about Kai and his purported "mediumship" was quite damning, indeed it was a compelling case but people cannot see it now. It may have appeared to DLF that nothing much was happening but then that is the nature of a forum. However, effectiveness cannot be judged by the number of people who contribute but the number who see it. There have been 5,000 visits to this thread which shows a phenomenal level of interest. I am also aware that some who may contribute are actually frightened of Kai and what he could do.

Sadly it seems to late to restore this and we will just leave the bits that we have in quotes on other people's posts. The loss of the pictures of Kai with "Spirit Lights" that are obviously the d'lite flights is, however, sad as it was a key piece in the writing to justify the words.

In some ways though DLF was on the verge of undoing his good work by extending his comments about others, still connected to Kai, in a way that was not justifiable on the evidence we have, indeed almost in an inflammatory manner which could lead people into adversarial positions where the facts become ignored. Had the material been presented simply and kept as factual as possible it would have been even more powerful. I can understand DLF's anger about being duped and treated adversely after several years in the Felix Group, especially as he had such a clear knowledge of the tricks Kai was using. He was very brave to post on here and it took much courage. I do hope his material will re appear but pared very much back to the provable factual issues which make his evidence against Kai so compelling.

Jim

You've presented the situation very clearly, Jim.

I regret not having used the 'Quote' button when replying as that prevents subsequent deletion by the author but I had no reason to suspect he'd do what he's done. I'd be surprised if he finds anywhere else to post such material so we can only hope he'll return and re-submit his information - won't be holding my breath in-between time though as that was an unhappy, angry and seemingly determined man. It's a shame he didn't realise he was among friends and only needed to be cautious that he kept to the demonstrable facts.

by obiwan Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:33 pm

Hi Lis

I assume from your comment he told you that was the reason for removing them. Given that, I agree it's an odd thing to do. It does make me wonder about his thinking. Shame as it was an interesting series of posts however anyone posting on a forum knows that moderation is always a possibility. I'd say it's pretty light-touch in here tbh compared to some forums.

by mac Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:47 pm

I can see why he might get the hump about being moderated if he hadn't understood why, but systematically going back and deleting material that had been well-received looks petulant.

by obiwan Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:33 pm

mac wrote:I can see why he might get the hump about being moderated if he hadn't understood why, but systematically going back and deleting material that had been well-received looks petulant.

I agree.

by Lis Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:42 pm

mac wrote:
Lis wrote:It seems that 'don't-like-frauds' has removed all his posts because he did not like having one of them edited because it made claims and insinuated conduct about a person and an organisation that Admin considered inflammatory.

Personally, I am not sure what they think they have achieved by this action, other than appearing to undermine the legitimacy of their claims.

Oh! That's a puzzle, Lis, but I'm also puzzled when you say "they" in connection with 'don't-like-frauds'.... Wasn't it just one person?

Seems he was overly-sensitive given the amount he'd already posted - editing to avoid problems is surely acceptable and what we sign up to accept anyway? Whatever, we've lost a lot of interesting information, the potential for more and his developing relationship with your website.

Takes all kinds....

Mac,

The use of the word "they" purely related only to one person, that is, 'don't-like-frauds,' not multiple people. Just the way I write sometimes using the word 'they' rather than the name. Sorry if I have confused anyone by this.

by Lis Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:16 pm

It seems that Mr Muegge has taken quite an exception to the article recently in Psychic News (and that paper's editor) which dealt with a talk Stephen Braude gave about his experimental work with the Felix circle.

For those interested Muegge's defence of his mediumship and criticisms of the article can be seen in his post of November 15, 2014 on http://felixcircle.blogspot.com.au/

I find his arguments for refuting the suggestion the lights and the 'ectoplasm' are false are most interesting.

by Mark74 Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:36 pm

Hi Lis, I read his article and it's laughable. Perhaps Kai Muegge should invite Psychic News to sit in on a seance and let them decide on the "SPIDER WEBS"

by Lis Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:53 pm

Very true Mark74 - the article avoids some crucial facts and distorts others.

Somehow I doubt Muegge would be willing to let Psychic News impose any strict scientific controls on the séance. For that matter I doubt that the staff at PN would be interested in attending his séances. They have been at one already and in their wisdom have chosen not to present any report of it to the public.

That might suggest there was nothing positive that they wanted to say about their experience.

by mac Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:08 am

Lis wrote:
mac wrote:
Lis wrote:It seems that 'don't-like-frauds' has removed all his posts because he did not like having one of them edited because it made claims and insinuated conduct about a person and an organisation that Admin considered inflammatory.

Personally, I am not sure what they think they have achieved by this action, other than appearing to undermine the legitimacy of their claims.

Oh! That's a puzzle, Lis, but I'm also puzzled when you say "they" in connection with 'don't-like-frauds'.... Wasn't it just one person?

Seems he was overly-sensitive given the amount he'd already posted - editing to avoid problems is surely acceptable and what we sign up to accept anyway? Whatever, we've lost a lot of interesting information, the potential for more and his developing relationship with your website.

Takes all kinds....

Mac,

The use of the word "they" purely related only to one person, that is, 'don't-like-frauds,' not multiple people. Just the way I write sometimes using the word 'they' rather than the name. Sorry if I have confused anyone by this.

Thanks and no worries, Lis. It had just made me wonder if the guy was acting as mouthpiece for a number of individuals and I see that wasn't the case. It's a pity he didn't stay with us, though, as he had much with which to illuminate the darkness (figurative as well as literal!) concerning the alleged physical mediumship of KM.

by eternaltruths Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:49 am

Muegges long awaitet reaction onf the accusations is not only in a punch in everyones face waiting for answers on the burning questions that arose from his behaviour and acting but also a great prove how Muegge handles the truth.
In first stance Muegge, Producer of very infamous tv productions tried to find people for a report on mediumistic circles, willing to fake the phenomena if no real occur.
In second stance Muegge used the ID as MrFree to Play the role of a guy who found the Felix Circle online and was thrilled by the results, telling the community.
In a third stance Muegge had some strange debates online with sceptics, now using that ID but showing up as Circle Leader.
There are other sides where Muegge ii interested getting to know how Uri Geller made special magic tricks and many more postings from MrFree you could find online if you go for a hunt. Most is in german as said.

Concerning the statement by Muegge...
-- I have seen the invoice for cobweb, massive cobweb bought on ebay
-- I have seen reproduction of ectoplams with that cobweb that looked exactly like that on the photos
-- Circle Leader Soederling and Dr. Nahm found out the DLITE was used and Muegge was confronted with that
-- Muegge denied having bought cobweb until Dr.Nahm told him he has the invoices
-- Muegge permitted releasing any more seance photos, some would be evidental
-- When Dr.Nahm told him which direction the report will go Muegge broke with Nahm and did not anwer mails or phonecalls anymore
-- The first Circle leader left years before with an open letter to the earlier paying visitors saying he strongly expects fraud

There are other facts sadly not written down and signed and therefore unusable for the public. I have my eyes on that Circle for years now. And others. And I am sad to say this is not the only surrounding where it seems ridiculous spending time to find the truth as it produces more of the opposite.
I sat with those people, I spoke to them, I am in contact with Dr.Nahm and others and my information is first hand.
Do you believe in wonders? I do. But if it comes to the point that a german tv producer (babylon-tv.de) and interested in a documentary report of mediumship emmenates into a world medium I definitely have my doubts. And the more I dig into this the bigger fragments arise that speak for fraud. And Muegges statement online ago proves this guy is taking the truth and facts not so seriously. He must think we are all sheep.

Are we?
Many are, but not all.

Uncomfortable times arise for those who think they could cheat those who are open to the supernatural. It is just a question of time until frauds are unmasked. Lies die, truth is eternal...

by obiwan Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:15 am

Lis wrote:Very true Mark74 - the article avoids some crucial facts and distorts others.

Somehow I doubt Muegge would be willing to let Psychic News impose any strict scientific controls on the séance. For that matter I doubt that the staff at PN would be interested in attending his séances. They have been at one already and in their wisdom have chosen not to present any report of it to the public.

That might suggest there was nothing positive that they wanted to say about their experience.

Hm. That's interesting. Why wouldn't PN report either way? Barbanell would roll in his grave. Smile

by Lis Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:24 am

obiwan wrote:
Lis wrote:Very true Mark74 - the article avoids some crucial facts and distorts others.

Somehow I doubt Muegge would be willing to let Psychic News impose any strict scientific controls on the séance. For that matter I doubt that the staff at PN would be interested in attending his séances. They have been at one already and in their wisdom have chosen not to present any report of it to the public.

That might suggest there was nothing positive that they wanted to say about their experience.

Hm. That's interesting. Why wouldn't PN report either way? Barbanell would roll in his grave.

Obiwan,

I think that is too harsh a statement. From my read of what is on the Muegge blog, PN stated it would only publish an article if Muegge agreed to certain strict controls. He did not, so PN did not.

by obiwan Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:20 pm

Lis wrote:
obiwan wrote:
Lis wrote:Very true Mark74 - the article avoids some crucial facts and distorts others.

Somehow I doubt Muegge would be willing to let Psychic News impose any strict scientific controls on the séance. For that matter I doubt that the staff at PN would be interested in attending his séances. They have been at one already and in their wisdom have chosen not to present any report of it to the public.

That might suggest there was nothing positive that they wanted to say about their experience.

Hm. That's interesting. Why wouldn't PN report either way? Barbanell would roll in his grave.

Obiwan,

I think that is too harsh a statement. From my read of what is on the Muegge blog, PN stated it would only publish an article if Muegge agreed to certain strict controls. He did not, so PN did not.

Hi Lis

Why bother going under the auspices of PN if the conditions that would be required in order to publish an article have been refused? I understand the point you're making.

I think I'd expect some sort of comment even if it was caveated by a statement that the requested controls were refused. I am not saying there is any disingenuousness from PN but it could look, to those who look for these things, like they were only prepared to report if the phenomena were genuine.

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