Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

KatyKing wrote:I've been talking to it alright but not with words that a lady should hear.
It's on its final warning now. Any more mucking about and it's getting retired for a new model. Only keep it cos its free. They are bringing that new colour tablet Kindle Fire out in UK soon so may get one of those. This is very limited in what it can do compared to machines at work but I begrudge paying subscription every month. Might ask advice on here.

Good luck!

skfarblum wrote:The one-electron universe hypothesis, commonly associated with Richard Feynman when he mentioned it in his Nobel lecture,postulates that there exists only a single electron in the universe, propagating through space and time in such a way as to appear in many places simultaneously.
I like this theory.Except I would change one-electron to the one-soul universe.
Just one soul doing everything.

This would allow for the teaching of 'all is one' to make sense. The idea that what is in one is in the whole, and what is in the whole is in the one.

Out of the different ideas about our origin and the reasons for being born into flesh, there is one I always struggled with. The idea that we came from source and was born into the physical just so we could start to make the journey back to source once again. Why would we do that? Why not stay as part of the source in the first place? Why leave a state of perfection to move into imperfection just so that we can make our way back to perfection once again?

Maybe I have not understood this idea fully. As I said before, it is an idea that I struggle with.

Juniper

[quote="Left Behind"]

Admin wrote:Still don't go for the reincarnation bit, it never properly explains the population growth and who on earth are we as mediums connecting to if we all reincarnate, sometimes apparently instantly.

I also dislike the fact it is a direct offshoot of Hindu traditions which excluded the untouchables and was a great way for the Brahmins to retain control.

My version is much more in keeping with Imperators words to Stainton Moses. If one class fails to teach the lesson why would we use that method again. I believe reincarnation may happen but we still have that thing we include in our Principles Freedom of Choice. Even Silver Birch touched upon that, we may choose another route after all the Spirit known as Silver Birch was not a "Perfected" one but was not constantly reincarnating to become perfect.

This concept of "perfection" is a concern how would we ever become perfect through using a very imperfect physical world. It is also more Theosophist/Buddhist/Spiritist than Spiritualist. Must we be "perfect" and who defines this. If it is God then how can a mere Spirit in a Physical Life ever hope to understand the mind of God to define Perfection.

Yes. I see many flaws in the theory of reincarnation, but the major one is the lack of necessity for it, given the Spiritualists' concept of eternal progress. If we move on to a better world, and can progress from there if we choose, why is it necessary to retrogress back to earth?

I reckon there is reincarnation for those as wants it along with the contractually obliged such as Dalai Lamas and the like although the curent DL seems to be busy redrafting the rules going off a ST interview with him today.
Not something I fancy myself though. I've come across some [always women for some reason] who claim to remember past lives and without exception they were something mystical and spiffy. Never yet come across a former swine herd or cess pit operative. Strange really as for every priestess at the temple of Isis there were thousands of blue collar grunts.

Dear Juniper,
Yes,you have indeed understood it correctly.
Indeed in a one-soul universe,the whole idea of having to
reach some perfected state does fall away,because without
having to go anywhere I am in my essence already one-soul.
I personally hold to the idea of being on a mission to develop
a particular value of one-soul.This value is who I really am and
I have been called forth to make this value real and functional.
Not only for me but for one-soul.
With this perspective,reincarnation is a means to an end and I would be
called to return.Also the necessary skills and knowledge would be available
within me to assist me in my mission.
Thanks
Stephen

skfarblum wrote:Dear Juniper,
Yes,you have indeed understood it correctly.
Indeed in a one-soul universe,the whole idea of having to
reach some perfected state does fall away,because without
having to go anywhere I am in my essence already one-soul.
I personally hold to the idea of being on a mission to develop
a particular value of one-soul.This value is who I really am and
I have been called forth to make this value real and functional.
Not only for me but for one-soul.
With this perspective,reincarnation is a means to an end and I would be
called to return.Also the necessary skills and knowledge would be available
within me to assist me in my mission.
Thanks
Stephen

Now that make's much more sense to me.

Thank you for that.

Juniper

Dear Juniper,
You are most welcome
Stephen

Juniper stated:

Out of the different ideas about our origin and the reasons for being born into flesh, there is one I always struggled with. The idea that we came from source and was born into the physical just so we could start to make the journey back to source once again. Why would we do that? Why not stay as part of the source in the first place? Why leave a state of perfection to move into imperfection just so that we can make our way back to perfection once again?"Maybe I have not understood this idea fully. As I said before, it is an idea that I struggle with. Juniper."

In many respects I think you have raised a crucial issue, Juniper. The point you make is important because as you note there is something fundamentally illogical in us being born into the physical from source just so we can try and work our way back to the source. The question is indeed why?

Perhaps it is, as I think I mentioned in a recent article I wrote in PN, the 'source' needs to split off fragments of itself and manifest those fragments through the physical reality it (source) has created in order to make source conscious of its own creation. The manifestation of itself in millions of different aspects allows the source to both express itself in finite and specific ways and at the same time to gather knowledge of how itself operates in those millions of different expressions. The source, being in one sense ínfinite consciousness', may actually want to find new ways of expressing that consciousness, and we, those tiny fragments of its consciousness take on physical life, gather the experience of it and return to the the source, thus increasing the sum total of the infinite's consciousness and expression.

Well said Lis, it also raises many issues about the source and teh nature of its learning experience.

Jim

KatyKing wrote:

I reckon there is reincarnation for those as wants it along with the contractually obliged such as Dalai Lamas and the like although the curent DL seems to be busy redrafting the rules going off a ST interview with him today.
Not something I fancy myself though. I've come across some [always women for some reason] who claim to remember past lives and without exception they were something mystical and spiffy. Never yet come across a former swine herd or cess pit operative. Strange really as for every priestess at the temple of Isis there were thousands of blue collar grunts.

Yes, this is another objections I have to the theory. Everyone "remembers" being one of Napoleon's generals or a WWI pilot or a Pharoah. Few "remember" being a chimney sweep or a peasant. Is it memory, or fantasy?

Lis wrote:Juniper stated:

Out of the different ideas about our origin and the reasons for being born into flesh, there is one I always struggled with. The idea that we came from source and was born into the physical just so we could start to make the journey back to source once again. Why would we do that? Why not stay as part of the source in the first place? Why leave a state of perfection to move into imperfection just so that we can make our way back to perfection once again?"Maybe I have not understood this idea fully. As I said before, it is an idea that I struggle with. Juniper."

In many respects I think you have raised a crucial issue, Juniper. The point you make is important because as you note there is something fundamentally illogical in us being born into the physical from source just so we can try and work our way back to the source. The question is indeed why?

But this presumes that we were in source, or were anything in source, or had any life prior to our existing earthly one. Why necessarily so? How many of us remember any such thing? I don't.

Jim

On the contrary, Left Behind. I think I am suggesting that until the Source differentiates that spark of itself to enter into physical life that spark has no previous or conscious existence - it is only by being created as a facet of the Source in a form that can inhabit a physical existence that the facet takes on a consciousness of itselfr and of life.

I suspect it is for this reason we do not have any awareness of an existence in the spirit realm prior to our coming into physical existence.

I have often asked folk of their earliest memories and some seem to begin memory around two years old. Of course Mind must be involved in this and the faculty of intellect may not be.
I have no opinion as to what this suggests, but it does seem that part of us lags behind a little when very young and as the body grows the other bits develop in unison.

Lis wrote:
In many respects I think you have raised a crucial issue, Juniper. The point you make is important because as you note there is something fundamentally illogical in us being born into the physical from source just so we can try and work our way back to the source. The question is indeed why?

Perhaps it is, as I think I mentioned in a recent article I wrote in PN, the 'source' needs to split off fragments of itself and manifest those fragments through the physical reality it (source) has created in order to make source conscious of its own creation. The manifestation of itself in millions of different aspects allows the source to both express itself in finite and specific ways and at the same time to gather knowledge of how itself operates in those millions of different expressions. The source, being in one sense ínfinite consciousness', may actually want to find new ways of expressing that consciousness, and we, those tiny fragments of its consciousness take on physical life, gather the experience of it and return to the the source, thus increasing the sum total of the infinite's consciousness and expression.

Interesting. I like the point you put across here.

If this view was how things are, then for me, it would mean there would probably never be an end result such as re-joining the source. Evolution of the soul would never reach a final destination, because surely it would make more sense for source to just keep going with having experience of some kind or another?


Juniper

That is the view of the SB group, when SB stated in reply to the invited question: 'What puzzles you most in the great range of your experiences'?

He replied to the effect that he had not yet understood why humanity was on the road to perfection, but can never arrive as humanity is inherently imperfect.

Yes ,very good dear hiorta.
I really like that SB quote.
Still perfection is an absolute state and I don't think humans are
that at all.Lets call us intermediates.This means humans need to
strive for this absolute state.Perhaps we can touch this perfection but
never hold it permanently.
This actually is a higher state than perfection because it allows
for endless renewal and creativity.
It seems to me Great Spirit has got it right.
Stephen

Hi Katy,
I am bit thick today,but what is a maudlin truism?I checked on
google but I did not get a clear answer.

OK I get it.
truism=stock phrase that says nothing
maudlin=tearful self pity.

Lis wrote:On the contrary, Left Behind. I think I am suggesting that until the Source differentiates that spark of itself to enter into physical life that spark has no previous or conscious existence - it is only by being created as a facet of the Source in a form that can inhabit a physical existence that the facet takes on a consciousness of itselfr and of life.

I suspect it is for this reason we do not have any awareness of an existence in the spirit realm prior to our coming into physical existence.

We're in agreement then, Lis.

Jim

hiorta wrote:That is the view of the SB group, when SB stated in reply to the invited question: 'What puzzles you most in the great range of your experiences'?

He replied to the effect that he had not yet understood why humanity was on the road to perfection, but can never arrive as humanity is inherently imperfect.

Interesting quote but we as humanity are not on the way to perfection, Humanity is deeply flawed which allows a vast array of experiences to the Spirit that travels through the physical world learning lessons before going back to the Spirit world.

Furthmore, is there any way that anyone or anything can be perfect when they are surrounded by other beings who are not perfect?

With all life being connected and each indivual's actions having an effect on the whole, then a perfect being could only exist if all beings and life are already perfect. Otherwise the imperfections of others would rub off some of the perfect being's perfections, so to speak

interesting conversation
good question why are we born in to this body and not stay in the spirit form? is that the basis of the question?
Spirit is eternal. we have no idea in reality how old we are, or if we are new incarnation or been around in a physical form for billions of years, who cares, what is now , is now. this is our life lesson there is something that our spirit needed to master , some life condition that had to be resolved in your spiritual experience in this life, each of us is a lesson and teacher and student to someone else, we are all connected. the ones who piss us off the most are our best teachers we can ask for, not the ones we agree with, but the ones who make us rethink, re consider and test what we believe to be a truth.
from what i understand and it has given me a newer sense of freedom, i am spirit. even in this mortal body, it is doomed to grow old, to age, eventually return to the dust from whence it came, it is part of the physical plane, energy is neither created nor destroyed. it is part of the material and will return to the refurbish the earth, but my spirit who i am. will progress, will move on to a higher evolution of spirit at least that is my hope.

If I remember rightly Silver Birch said that the Great Spirit is heading towards perfection and may never quite get there as it is an eternal process, and the only thing that is truly perfect is Natural Law. Maybe Earth is some sort of remedial class for those that haven't quite got the knack of Natural Law yet ;-)

I had this debate with the President of the current Harmonal Philosophy Association in the US Wes some time ago.

The challenge was that the view she suggested was that infinite intelligence, or God, was not compassionate and caring but disspassionate and disconnected to the events of our life. However the events of our life helped the intelligence to grow. Now if we consider it that way then the Great Spirit is learning constantly from the events surrounding all of its creations.

On the other hand Silver Birch also suggested that even from his much more advanced development he could not explain the Great Spirit or describe it so how could we expect to comprehend the workings of the Great Spirit.

I still prefer a compassionate Great Spirit but I think the learning part may be quite correct.

Perhaps this is the only way we can develop. I think it was mentioned earlier and is a good point: what were we before the person we are now?

If our physical existence is transitory and part of some larger process, presumably it serves some purpose. Why it serves that purpose may be difficult to answer without understanding the full process. Perhaps there are some things peculiar to a physical existence which provide elements of our development that cannot be acquired in any other way.

Why are butterflies caterpillars before they develop? It is necessary in their process of development, I suppose there could have been other ways of achieving the same thing but nature seems to have settled on that one.

Some people appear to have very short physical existences indeed. I suppose we can speculate but maybe our consciousness receives some kind of kick-start by becoming incarnate, for however long?

Very good points Obi

The reason for incarnating on earth is an interesting topic. Why do billions of souls incarnate here when one would assume there are many other physical existences available on other planets that are far more harmonious?

With seemingly so few souls incarnating here to provide service to spirit, why do the other souls choose to come here?

Is the violence, suffering and chaos here on earth somehow attractive to many souls, or do these things need to be experienced first before one can learn to evolve beyond them?