Re: Simple Book on Passing to Spirit.

by KatyKing Sun May 20, 2012 10:59 pm

Just the references will do I'd like to find his obituary there must be one somewhere knocking around. I do respect your knowledge and experience z but know from personal experience how memory is less a sure guide the older I get.
You have indeed been fortunate in knowing the good and the great of the past and I followed your NAS career with interest via PN reports and the newsletter back when Colin was youth officer. I wonder though if the quasi hagiographic big nameism of the past didn't do us as much harm as it did good. The famous few in PN were never out of the paper sometimes to the detriment of the 'ordinary' expenses only mediums who served churches year in year out and nary a mention. We're maybe more democratic these days as an inclusive movement for ALL rather than just an elite few big names. Nostalgia's a great comfort but I do wonder sometime if we view the past through rather too rosy glasses. My experience of SNUspiritualism between the sixties and nineties was one of fusty decline with an ageing leadership increasingly out of touch with its membership which voted with thei feet. Folk don' come to church to hear reminisences about the good old days. It' how Spirit can help them in the here and now that they are after and where that is found we see growth.
Odd about the church website, my name is usually at the top of the mediums list for tea with spirit etc and just in this latest PN I've submitted a church report with photos that's also on PN website too. A quick call to Marian Sawczuk our President [she keeps office hours during the week] will confirm my bona fides George you can also reserve a sitting with me at the church on any Saturday [weekdays in vacations] should you wish to do so at the same time. Thirty pounds but a substantial discount for pensioners and friends such as yourself. The phone number is on the website and it all helps church funds so do come along, you'll be made most welcome as is every visitor to the 'warm and welcoming' Leicester Progressive Spiritualist Church. Next 'Tea with Spirit' is on Saturday ninth of Jure.
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by zerdini Mon May 21, 2012 11:16 am

KatyKing wrote:Just the references will do I'd like to find his obituary there must be one somewhere knocking around.

There is no obituary 'knocking around'.

Anthony Borgia died of natural causes and was looked after by two friends at their home in Sussex where he passed away.

I do respect your knowledge and experience z but know from personal experience how memory is less a sure guide the older I get.

Maybe in your case, Peter, but certainly not in mine.

You have indeed been fortunate in knowing the good and the great of the past and I followed your NAS career with interest via PN reports and the newsletter back when Colin was youth officer.

It just shows how little you know! Colin was never 'youth officer' whatever that means.

I wonder though if the quasi hagiographic big nameism of the past didn't do us as much harm as it did good.

You can wonder as much as you like but it won't change anything.

The famous few in PN were never out of the paper sometimes to the detriment of the 'ordinary' expenses only mediums who served churches year in year out and nary a mention.

The reason is because they made news and PN was a newspaper.

We're maybe more democratic these days as an inclusive movement for ALL rather than just an elite few big names. Nostalgia's a great comfort but.....

I do wonder sometime if we view the past through rather too rosy glasses.

I certainly don't view the past through rosy glasses because I don't rely on memory alone. I have records and tape recordings.

My experience of SNUspiritualism between the sixties and nineties was one of fusty decline with an ageing leadership increasingly out of touch with its membership which voted with thei feet. Folk don' come to church to hear reminisences about the good old days. It' how Spirit can help them in the here and now that they are after and where that is found we see growth.

Odd about the church website, my name is usually at the top of the mediums list for tea with spirit etc.

I didn't find it odd at all.

and just in this latest PN I've submitted a church report with photos that's also on PN website too. A quick call to Marian Sawczuk our President [she keeps office hours during the week] will confirm my bona fides George you can also reserve a sitting with me at the church on any Saturday [weekdays in vacations] should you wish to do so at the same time. Thirty pounds but a substantial discount for pensioners and friends such as yourself.

Thanks but no thanks. Over the years I've had substantial evidence of survival from the very best mediums and neither you or anyone else can add to that. I would never pay any medium thirty pounds (discounted or not) for a sitting which I think is outrageous.

The phone number is on the website and it all helps church funds so do come along, you'll be made most welcome as is every visitor to the 'warm and welcoming' Leicester Progressive Spiritualist Church. Next 'Tea with Spirit' is on Saturday ninth of Jure.
[Sorry Admin no more adverts I promise]

by obiwan Mon May 21, 2012 12:16 pm

How about a reply to my question Peter?

obiwan wrote:I think it would be more helpful Peter if you told us why you feel so strongly about the books unless it is based purely on the suicide you mention.

by KatyKing Mon May 21, 2012 12:32 pm

No obituary then. Thank you George.
I knew Raph Samuel, you I don't know aoprt from postings on here.
There was always a degree of obscurity ('cloak and dagger-ness' someone once said about sources proceeding from barbie's circle. I shall reserve judgement until more refs are to hand.
No strong feelings either way about the book Obi it's just another Spiritualist book and not especially part of the canon in the same way that SB works are. I found 'Borgia's' Pooterish snobbery risible (the volunteer gardeners for example) hence my 'horrible little man'.
There's a certain 'spirit' underpinnimng the work that I was uncomfortable with from the off. Had the strongest link with a poor sould who had taken herself over as a result of reading Borgia so that sort of confirmed my unease. The problem with critiquing 'our' books is that, to some; they replace Holy Writ so folk become upset and that's not my intention.
Suffice it to say that I'm happy that my Borgia is with Les and not in the hands of someone in a fragile state for whom this life holds few attractions.
Taking Jim LBs point that most Spiritualist books posit 'this life bad next life better'; I'd say no they don't. The best posit 'This life for our improvement individually, spiritually and socially next life for further development devlopment' There's an optimism about life here and hereafter in the best Spiritualist literature that I struggle to find in Borgia.
Cloyingly evil is too strong a term perhaps but deeply unpleasant was and is my abiding impression of the book.

by obiwan Mon May 21, 2012 12:59 pm

KatyKing wrote:No obituary then. Thank you George.
I knew Raph Samuel, you I don't know aoprt from postings on here.
There was always a degree of obscurity ('cloak and dagger-ness' someone once said about sources proceeding from barbie's circle. I shall reserve judgement until more refs are to hand.
No strong feelings either way about the book Obi it's just another Spiritualist book and not especially part of the canon in the same way that SB works are. I found 'Borgia's' Pooterish snobbery risible (the volunteer gardeners for example) hence my 'horrible little man'.
There's a certain 'spirit' underpinnimng the work that I was uncomfortable with from the off. Had the strongest link with a poor sould who had taken herself over as a result of reading Borgia so that sort of confirmed my unease. The problem with critiquing 'our' books is that, to some; they replace Holy Writ so folk become upset and that's not my intention.
Suffice it to say that I'm happy that my Borgia is with Les and not in the hands of someone in a fragile state for whom this life holds few attractions.
Taking Jim LBs point that most Spiritualist books posit 'this life bad next life better'; I'd say no they don't. The best posit 'This life for our improvement individually, spiritually and socially next life for further development devlopment' There's an optimism about life here and hereafter in the best Spiritualist literature that I struggle to find in Borgia.
Cloyingly evil is too strong a term perhaps but deeply unpleasant was and is my abiding impression of the book.

I am puzzled - on the one hand you seem to describe it as 'deeply unpleasant' and on the other as something that would be attractive to someone unhappy with life here. Without being specific it is difficult to understand what you don't like about his writings, other than that they offend your personal sensibilities. Which is a good enough reason in itself but not terribly helpful for other who do not know you.

I don't understand why it is difficult to critique a book based on what is written in it. You didn't seem to be worried about maligning Borgia but appear worried about offending people who may value his writings. Maybe I have missed the point you are making.

Also, Borgia isn't the purported communicator is he? My reading was that he was reporting what Benson was communicating, I may be wrong here.

by KatyKing Mon May 21, 2012 1:09 pm

'Maligning', not necessarily Obi, but that's not a word I'd choose to use. My issue, and it's not one that I care to labour more, is the underpinning 'spirit' of the book if you like. Hard to describe it really, an 'intuit' perhaps. Unpleasant, 'smells' all wrong. But that's just me, to another it'll be Ann of Green Gables crossed with Harry Potter.
The content I've described in part as 'risible' / Pooterish and that merely to ascribe.
Borgia may well have written it himself or it could as well have been written by someone else either on this side or from the next.
All subjective at the end of the day old friend, I'm no expert, each to their own say I and take it as one may.

by obiwan Mon May 21, 2012 5:46 pm

I was trying to understand why in particular you didn't like it. No matter.

by KatyKing Mon May 21, 2012 10:12 pm

Quite right Obi. Mountain/molehill. Those who enjoy shall, those who don't won't.
On with the motley.

by petal34 Mon May 21, 2012 11:02 pm

KatyKing wrote: Quite right Obi. Mountain/molehill. Those who enjoy shall, those who don't won't.
On with the motley.

I think I have found my book now,Pete.
Given by a very kind member of the SCR site.
Very Happy

Joan

by KatyKing Mon May 21, 2012 11:05 pm

What book did you get Joan?

by petal34 Mon May 21, 2012 11:21 pm

KatyKing wrote:What book did you get Joan?

'Basic Spiritulalism',Pete.
Have to look it up first,I have been given a link by the member.
Title says it all doesn't it?
Very Happy

by KatyKing Mon May 21, 2012 11:35 pm

KISS = Keep it SImple Spiritualist.
Can't beat a good basic book. Would be interested to hear your review of it at some stage.
I hesitated to recommend the Lyceum Manual but that has a very good intro and all written in straightforward easy to follow style. I prefer the older editions to the latest one but it's all good stuff.
Two booklets also from SNU the religion and the philosophy of Spiritualism. David Hopkins who writes for PN was a co author on those.

by Admin Mon May 21, 2012 11:50 pm

Interesting debate, intuitively I have not been drawn to the Borgia books and like many "descriptions" of the after life I have walkes away from them. All to often the subconscious conditioning of the writer, cultural, religous, race, class tend to stick out of the surface like rocks in the rapids.

Additionally they often reflect either the idyllic nature of a life beyond that some want or at the opposite extreme some kind of Presbyterian/Lutheran extreme work ethic where evil souls are consigned to a purgatory and suicides are left is a sea of mud to lie in agony for years.

I have noticed Benson does create waves from the lovers to the loathers. I also have my problems with Owen's many volumed Life Beyond the Veil. I am startled that Spirit can enable us to even perceive life in a world of Spiritual not Physical matter.

Although I am much keener on history and research than Peter I think we do have to be careful about placing books and people on pedestals.

Conversely having joined the movement in the 1980's and seen what is happening here and from a few visitors the standard is not as good now. I think, Peter that you may have the Rose Tinted glasses on as you look round nowadays. The last 20 years copuld kill off any concept of Spiritualism execpt as a psychism/semi mediumship adjunct of the New Age.

Conversely it is many of the greats of the 80's who failed to ensure that that heritage continues. I have heard now that the shortage is such groups at the AFC talk about the new mediumship. Identify those who have some mediumship talent at a course, then however basic the talent, put them on platform to learn on the job. Avoids the whole fledgling/circle training thing. Hardly surprising given that most circles could not add much value. Sadly expect a continuing massive decline in the standards of mediumship.

Jim

by petal34 Tue May 22, 2012 1:05 am

KatyKing wrote:KISS = Keep it SImple Spiritualist.
Can't beat a good basic book. Would be interested to hear your review of it at some stage.
I hesitated to recommend the Lyceum Manual but that has a very good intro and all written in straightforward easy to follow style. I prefer the older editions to the latest one but it's all good stuff.
Two booklets also from SNU the religion and the philosophy of Spiritualism. David Hopkins who writes for PN was a co author on those.

Sleepless night tonight... Crying or Very sad

The site is under Atlas Books.
So many interesting books.just had a quick look.
Will browse later in the day.
Very Happy

by obiwan Tue May 22, 2012 8:47 am

Hi Jim
I think for me it is a process of accretion really. I would say that I am still not convinced of survival per se, however reading widely does give one the benefit of perspective.

I agree that it isn't necessarily a good thing to light upon one or two works that we like the look of and assume that's the solution.

by petal34 Tue May 22, 2012 10:34 am

Found the ideal book I was after.
Titled Basic Spiritualism.

Price £2.00 plus delivery making total of £3.50.

Very Happy

by KatyKing Tue May 22, 2012 12:12 pm

Admin wrote:Interesting debate, intuitively I have not been drawn to the Borgia books and like many "descriptions" of the after life I have walkes away from them. All to often the subconscious conditioning of the writer, cultural, religous, race, class tend to stick out of the surface like rocks in the rapids.

Additionally they often reflect either the idyllic nature of a life beyond that some want or at the opposite extreme some kind of Presbyterian/Lutheran extreme work ethic where evil souls are consigned to a purgatory and suicides are left is a sea of mud to lie in agony for years.

I have noticed Benson does create waves from the lovers to the loathers. I also have my problems with Owen's many volumed Life Beyond the Veil. I am startled that Spirit can enable us to even perceive life in a world of Spiritual not Physical matter.

Although I am much keener on history and research than Peter I think we do have to be careful about placing books and people on pedestals.

Conversely having joined the movement in the 1980's and seen what is happening here and from a few visitors the standard is not as good now. I think, Peter that you may have the Rose Tinted glasses on as you look round nowadays. The last 20 years copuld kill off any concept of Spiritualism execpt as a psychism/semi mediumship adjunct of the New Age.

Conversely it is many of the greats of the 80's who failed to ensure that that heritage continues. I have heard now that the shortage is such groups at the AFC talk about the new mediumship. Identify those who have some mediumship talent at a course, then however basic the talent, put them on platform to learn on the job. Avoids the whole fledgling/circle training thing. Hardly surprising given that most circles could not add much value. Sadly expect a continuing massive decline in the standards of mediumship.

Jim

Wise words Jim. My views are subjective for sure. I know causes that are on their uppers (SNU mainly) but we're the Spiritualist equivalent of a mega-church so that's what I see at home meetings. When I'm working 'away' it's a different story. There is growth but in pockets not all over. Medium training at AFC seems to have switched to short course-to-platform 'sink or swim' model and away from the slow old apprenticeship tutor/mentor model as was the case in the past. They don't have that many active tutors available for medium development work I suppose. Same all over. Our formation classes run from circles through 1-2-1 short sessions and culminate in open platform experience. very very few progress onto Platform work. I've not done stats but a guesstimate would be fewer than 5% of those involved in circle training will finish up as platform demmers. It's just not popular, there's no money in it, it's inconvenient and brings anti social working hours on evenings and weekends and so, in one way; you can't blame folk preferring to want to train as fast as they can and then work either on stage and/or as a consulting medium.
Not saying it can't work. We train our student teachers in two-years part time or one year full time for PGCEs but I always say to them at graduation... 'The learning REALLY starts now...'
In one way you can't actually train a medium, someone either is one or they're not, it's the development and learning what to say, how to say it and often more importantly, what NOT to say and how NOT to say it. I've been at this boy and man these 35-years past but every day's a learning day.
Found out so much since I joined on here, marvellous place; lovely people.

by Left Behind Tue May 22, 2012 2:50 pm

petal34 wrote:Found the ideal book I was after.
Titled Basic Spiritualism.

Price £2.00 plus delivery making total of £3.50.

I'll have to check that one out, Joanie.

Jim

by petal34 Tue May 22, 2012 4:45 pm

Left Behind wrote:
petal34 wrote:Found the ideal book I was after.
Titled Basic Spiritualism.

Price £2.00 plus delivery making total of £3.50.

I'll have to check that one out, Joanie.

Jim

Flabberghasted at the cheap prices,Jim.
Well worth having a look.

by KatyKing Tue May 22, 2012 10:36 pm

Amazon partners is amazing. I've had books from sellers on there for one penny plus P&P.
Cheeky though. They had an old Kitson bio for twenty odd quid in 'fair' condition which indicates shabby. I posted a review advising that SNU sells a 'new' facsimilie of it for a tenner. They wouldn't publish that info so someone is, potentially; a tenner or more out of pocket.
Hay House self improvement titles are always available almost from date of publication at a fraction of the cover price. It really pays to shop around.

by petal34 Wed May 23, 2012 8:57 am

KatyKing wrote:KISS = Keep it SImple Spiritualist.
Can't beat a good basic book. Would be interested to hear your review of it at some stage.
I hesitated to recommend the Lyceum Manual but that has a very good intro and all written in straightforward easy to follow style. I prefer the older editions to the latest one but it's all good stuff.
Two booklets also from SNU the religion and the philosophy of Spiritualism. David Hopkins who writes for PN was a co author on those.

Book arrived this morning,Peter.
A bit like Two Words but thinner.
Covers just about everything to do with Spiritualism,briefly.
But good enough for son to read as a begnner.
Not bad for £2.

by KatyKing Wed May 23, 2012 2:07 pm

Good stuff Joan. Hope he does well with it.

by Left Behind Thu May 24, 2012 12:18 am

And that it whets his appetite for further Spiritualist reading. Smile

by petal34 Thu May 24, 2012 5:56 am

Left Behind wrote:And that it whets his appetite for further Spiritualist reading.

That's the idea,Jim... Very Happy

by Left Behind Fri May 25, 2012 8:47 pm

I wonder if it, or something similar, is available in bulk from the National Spiritualist Association of Churches (NSAC), here in the US? If so I could buy a batch, save on international postage, and give them out to friends.

New converts always want to become missionaries! Laughing

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