Rumi

Rumi had Moses ask God a question.
He asked why it is that God who created all creatures also chooses to demolish
them.

Moses put the question like this. He said:
"You are the Lord of Judgement, and you created all the beings and in what forms
they live. So why do you then choose to destroy all that? You have made the
forms male and female, and you allow the spirit in them to enjoy happiness. But
then you bring it all to ruin. Why?"

God answered him and said:
"I know that this question is not from an argumentative motive nor comes from
idle curiosity, otherwise I would not answer. You ask in order to understand and
reveal the hidden meaning behind all phenomena. And I know that this question
isn't really for you yourself but is designed to help bring to ripeness those
people who are as yet unripe.

So this is good, as the ability to question properly is actually one half of
knowledge and the ability to ask the right questions is a great ability that few
possess.
Out of knowledge both the question and its answer grow, just as out of the same
earth the rose flower and its thorny stem are nurtured. But be careful as both
perdition and salvation can come from knowledge. Just as from plants receiving
water both a bitter fruit and a sweet fruit arise, and just as knowing someone
can lead to either hatred or love, therefore be cautious and careful with what
arises from knowledge."

Then God said: "Moses, you already possess an excellent understanding and as you
asked the question, you yourself can reveal the answer. But first sow some seeds
in the ground and let them grow."

Moses did as he was asked. He sowed a field with corn seeds and in time the
seeds sprouted and grew till they were tall golden grasses, heavy with ears of
grain, beautiful in their symmetry and ripeness.

When they were ready for harvesting Moses took a sickle and began to cut the
corn with it. And then he began to thresh and separate the grain from the straw.

Then a voice from the unseen reached his ear, saying: "Moses! What are you
doing?

Moses replied: "I am harvesting the corn that you told me to grow."

That voice said: "But you have put so much effort into creating this. First you
sowed it and then you tended and watered it so that it grew and matured. Now
when it has reached perfection, why are you cutting it down and destroying it ?"

Moses answered: "I cut the crop down because there is both straw and grain here.
I naturally don't want to mix the straw with the grain nor the grain with the
straw. There is a separate store for each and each is used for a different
purpose and has a different value. It would not be wise to mix them up together.
Therefore wisdom lies in separating the two."

God asked Moses: "Where did you learn the art of cutting, threshing and
winnowing? From where did you get this wisdom and this knowledge? "

Moses replied: "From you God. I got this power of discernment from you."

God then said: "Then I must also have that wisdom and power of discernment.

Then God explained: "Among all the forms that I have created there is a part
which is pure and spiritual and also that which is dark and muddy. Within these
shells and coverings all is not of equal value. There is that which is like a
pearl and that which is worthless in comparison.
It is necessary to make clear the difference between that which is good and that
which isn't, just as you have been distinguishing between the grain from the
straw."

Then God explained further: "The purpose behind the creation of all the
creatures in the world is to bring out this difference. The aim is to manifest
and reveal the treasure of the divine that otherwise would not be revealed.

Do not let your main substance - that which is of most worth in yourself - be
lost. Make it manifest. Your true substance is concealed in falsehood. Work with
that so that it may reveal that which is hidden. For everything that is
perishable is actually a sign of that which is everlasting.
Then God said: "Listen! I am that hidden treasure."

Mathnawi. Book IV, Verses 3001 - 3050.

Very interesting reading although I would like to tip it upside down and suggest that it's up to each of us to decide our own spiritual progress and place in the great scheme of things, rather than have god do the judging and sorting for us. There's a Spiritulaist principle or two that say something along those lines

Perhaps if 'Teacher' had been used rather than 'God'?
A fine explanatory post nevertheless, redolent of Kahlil Gibran's 'The Prophet'.

Good points.Both have validity.
Thanks
Stephen

Bit of a lad that Rumi.
Wrote some good jokes too.
Interesting point Stephen. Finding God in an absence.
James Nayler a proto Quaker and early Ranter wrote a pamphlet back in the English Civil War era.....
The Lyght ande Darke Side of Godde.... suggesting something similar.
People being what they are the Ranters read that as a prescription for finding God in sin. The more I transgress the more may Grace abound
wrote one.
And thus antinomianism... doing what we like because it feels good and leaving it to God to sort out the consequences.
Nayler was branded with a H for heretic on is forehead and had his tongue bored through with a hot iron. Yet his followers, albeit most have never hear of him; are with us to this day.
Spiritualism on the other hand teaches service combined with personal responsibility. Service as praxis is by far the least fashionable of those two attributes in these 'navel gazing' days . Folk like to talk about how they feel and are happy to do that for hours but the minute you suggest actually doing something such as trying to get volunteers to set tables up or tidy after a meeting..... that's when problems arise.

Old text that was on all Lyceum [Spiritualist Sunday School]walls back in the day read.......
Hands
Hearts to Spirit
Work

That didn't post as written.
The text was always set out with the word TO at the centre.
So across it read.... Hearts to Spirit
and down..... Hands to work.

The idea being that Work [that word being at the bottom of the text] was the foundation holding up the rest.

Dear Katy,
Very interesting posts.To see God as an absence but not necessarily
absent is a great idea.The via negativa I think it is called.
This business of service is a bit of a slippery slope.I have rather contrarian ideas about it.
I have often felt that for service to be done with a willingness,requires
an excess of inner goodness from the heart.Service is done using this excess.
Using the will,can eventually result in depletion of the goodness and after awhile one has
to force oneself to continue.
To do service because
of duty or guilt is basically a rather painful job.I don't
subscribe to service as somehow being a noble sacrifice.
The trick,for me,is somehow within the self to see this particular service as
part of something bigger which has meaning for me.
Not quite sure how any of this may help you to
encourage others to help.Sorry I am not much of a team leader.
Stephen

I find that bribery sometimes does the trick Stephen.
The occasional fish and chip or meat pie supper laid on free for 'helpers' works wonders.
St John of the Cross I think for via negativa. He's a gloomy old cove though. Very baroque.
Rumi has more laughs.
There's a Reform Rabbi here who writes and broadcasts Rabbi Lionel Blue, jolly sort and draws from Rumi in some of his books. Very light and yet quite profound.
His
Bolts from the Blue
is great bedside reading.

Thanks for the info.I will try and buy the book and find out more
about Rabbi Lionel Blue.Seems to be a real character.
I read a little on the life of St John of the Cross.
According to what I read he was kidnapped from a Jewish family and
brought up as Catholic.The Catholic Church never acknowledged this
probably because he is considered one their great saints.
He had a terrible life.No wonder he wanted to disown it.
Stephen

I think a lot of that went on in Spain especially when that kIng was for banishing all the Jews. Forced conversions and such.
Not the nicest people that Holy Inquisition.
This current pope was in charge of it prior to his promotion.

As we are discussing Saints.Have any Saints ever come through
and talked about their experiences,in a manner sufficient to
validate the Saint?
should this be a new topic?

St Padre Pio has a couple of mediums he works with.
Sites are in Italian though.
John Wesley also did a lot of work through Yorkshire mediums in the early days . Suppose he could be called a Methodist saint. Our cousins the Spiritists seem to be very up on Saints as guides. Maybe because Spiritism springs from a Roman Catholic background whereas Spiritualism has its roots in radical protestantism.
We all had St Christopher car key fobs back in the day though though. I still have one. Pays to be cautious.
Thank God and touch wood I have never been superstitious. But why take chances?

Sort of begs a question that.
RC reckons now that St Christopher didn' actually exist so took him off their calendar. But he still is very popular and I woul' be at all surprised if someone wasn' bringing him through.
Here in England the first missionaries,Celtic Christians not RCs simply canonised any local deities they came across and knocked up a wattle chapel dedicated to the newly converted saint atop any sacred spots. Saved time all round and the locals got to keep the same holidays.

Thanks Katy.Not quite sure about all this.I think
I will drop the subject for the present.Better
I stick to things I know a little about.

skfarblum wrote:
Then God explained: "Among all the forms that I have created there is a part
which is pure and spiritual and also that which is dark and muddy. Within these
shells and coverings all is not of equal value. There is that which is like a
pearl and that which is worthless in comparison.
It is necessary to make clear the difference between that which is good and that
which isn't, just as you have been distinguishing between the grain from the
straw."

Then God explained further: "The purpose behind the creation of all the
creatures in the world is to bring out this difference. The aim is to manifest
and reveal the treasure of the divine that otherwise would not be revealed.

Do not let your main substance - that which is of most worth in yourself - be
lost. Make it manifest. Your true substance is concealed in falsehood. Work with
that so that it may reveal that which is hidden. For everything that is
perishable is actually a sign of that which is everlasting.
Then God said: "Listen! I am that hidden treasure."

Mathnawi. Book IV, Verses 3001 - 3050.

I really like this part of the story.

Tell us, who is Mathnawi? I've never heard of him.

Thanks for the opportunity to read something different.

Found it through Google:

http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3030

It was something Rumi wrote. I am so used to seeing short things in collections.

I like the idea, suggested in this forum some time ago by someone I can't remember, that the Divine or the Great Spirit furthers the potential for love through the creation of human beings and human experience. I would suggest that the whole of creation is also a major part of this hypothesis. Animals are spirit too.

That idea is present in this exerpt from Rumi.

Wouldn't be much of a Summerland without animals.
Cleverer too by all accounts at least those that had a strong link with people on this side.
One of our mediums Wendy is a great one for dogs. Generally has a loved pet in spirit wagging its tail with a sitter. We had four last night in meeting. Spot on too mostly, name,breed, how long over, doggie reminiscences.
Wendy has it on good authority that in spirit we can communicate with our animals almost word for word.
Reckon that's plausible. There's a horse whispering and animal Reiki lady we know as can near enough get horses to know what she's saying and 'talk' back.

Yes, I believe animals are part of life in spirit. Various spirit communicators speak of this.

Let me tell you a story.

As child I had a beautiful ginger kitten which got lost when we moved houses once. My heart was broken and I held my father responsible with all the passion of an eight year old.

Five decades later my father came through in a life changing encounter with a spiritualist medium. At that time, amongst other fairly serious things, a dear cat had died.

I was ill and could not work. Life was dark. One cold and blustery day I got a 'nudge' to go down to the RSPCA to look at kittens. Knew nothing about 'nudges' then. There was just a compelling feeling that I should go.

Couldn't see a kitten that attracted me and was resting against a wire fence when I looked down to see a little ginger kitten at my feet. Fell in love immediately.

It wasn't until a few weeks later that I connected the messages from my father in spirit with the little ginger kitten now part of my life. Ginger females are quite rare.

Fully accept that this little ginger companion spirit is tangible evidence of love from those who care.

For sure Q.
'When the pupil is ready the kitten [or puppy] appears'.
Definitely some pet spirits reincarnate back to loved owners in another body.
Too much evidence about for that not to be so.
Friend of ours has had the same cat twice.
First time round she was a skinny black Siamesey cross,this time a porky tabby but same 'person' to a T. Knew her way round from day one, identical language; the works .
Never knew that about ginger girls being rare but now you'e mentioned it can't think of one amongst all our cat owned friends.
The Dowager Duchess Emily Catte who manages our house and dogs and has had her photo in PN is a mixture. Front end aquiline classy and back end fat slapper.
Lowest centre of gravity you could ever imagine.

I never actually thought that this kitten was a reincarnation, but simply a gift from Spirit. . Someone else might say it was all co-incidence.

In circle sometimes animals have come through for other people and I've heard and read various stories from others.

I'm not so sure that there are quite as many coincidences as some folk reckon Q.
;-)