Paranormal Review A Proper Reply to Brutons Interview +

I have just read through this thread, with a mixture of curiosity and reluctance.

I wasn't involved in the conflict around the SNU and the closure of 'Psychic News'. I became aware of it only after a major and very damaging conflict in the VSU in Melbourne in 2008/09 and I sought a winder perspective on Spiritualism. There are so few accessible resources in Australia.

I can see that Spiritualist Movement is just as human as other churches and community organisations and people muddle through. Muddling through seems to be requirement of the human experience.

So I'm not sure what all the issues are here between people but I hope they will pass. Such conflict can be both productive and damaging. To be honest, I think that such serious conflict as the Spiritualist churches in Melbourne and other places in Australia and the UK seem to be more damaging than productive, however.

I wonder whether it would be possible for you, Lis and Jim, to have a thread where internet links to spiritualist resources are referenced in the one place. I was looking for some of the newspapers/magazines mentioned in this thread and found this link which is quite useful. I might end up spending some hours there. Below is the link I just discovered.

http://www.spiritualistresources.com/

My apologies for the distraction. There seem to have been a few already so this one might not not be received too negatively.

Blessings to everyone. It is Australia Day here and I must spend the best part of the holiday away from the computer, out in the sun preferably.

Thats Ok Quiet it was never intended that the debate should extend as it has thats a nice site. Yes have a great Australia Day I think ours will be peaceful. Its a bit hot in the sun over here though.

obiwan wrote:Who are you calling odd?

Certainly not you Obie

Nor you Mac Though if you both say you are odd who am I to argue with you

Obviously you are both nice odd not nasty odd so continue to feel most welcome on the forum.

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:"I must add - not all of those viewing the thread were odd people but one or two certainly may have been!"

I can speak only for myself and I am odd!

Me too. Though probably in a different way.

Keepin' away from the contentious stuff, remember the saying: "Everybody's queer bar thee and me and even thee's a bit queer!" ? ( Subsitute odd for queer as it might not be pc at this moment.... )

Even friends can sometimes get a little 'hot under the collar' about important issues.....

So long as we all remain friends it shouldn't matter too much.

"Blessings to everyone. It is Australia Day here and I must spend the best part of the holiday away from the computer, out in the sun preferably" As the colonials hereabouts say "Have a Great Day!"

I'm enjoying the sun too but keep breaking off to join in the cyber fun...

Admin wrote:Thats Ok Quiet it was never intended that the debate should extend as it has thats a nice site. Yes have a great Australia Day I think ours will be peaceful. Its a bit hot in the sun over here though.

Thanks Jim. It's a nice day here. The cool change came on Tuesday and very welcome it was.

Thinking about the conflict that arose from within the SNU, there are some parallels with what happened here in that the issues arose because of structural inadequacies. There was little accountability, not much enlightenment and poor ways of engaging with people. That is just my opinion (and I am hard to please). The people in charge had been elected by the members, however and little could be done to change things. I suppose in a way they were doing the best they could.

I had to walk away but I was quite burned by the experience. My own disappointment (and a little bitterness) was overwhelming. And there has been a bit of a void around what to believe and where to go next. I've come to the realisation that the path is there to discover and I just have to keep plugging away.

To be honest, I can't see the point in arguing about an interview like the one that occurred, from all sides. Obviously the discussion simply reflects wounds that might not have healed.

You and Lis have a wonderful opportunity to continue the good work here and in the place you've created in SA. Hey, I wish you were over here! I'll have to go and find myself a place to belong and to work within. I miss that, but didn't really feel that it existed at the VSU either. I enjoy the development circle but took some time out because I felt so spiritually unconnected to anything. Not a good basis for mediumship development!

Perhaps the sun and the greenery in the Dandenongs will help

I am sure it will help a lot Quiet that would be lovely, we are looking forward to the end of 8 days in the mid 30's on Monday. Thanks for the lovely comments.

Lis wrote:

obiwan wrote:Who are you calling odd?

Certainly not you Obie

Nor you Mac Though if you both say you are odd who am I to argue with you

Obviously you are both nice odd not nasty odd so continue to feel most welcome on the forum.

Oh good answer

ive only read the two part interview in Two Worlds so may be out of the loop. Cantaccess Roys site via Kindle. But Mr Bruton comes across as a smooth managerialist sort of chap. On the road visiting churches. Publishing free recruitment leaflets for the cause etc. Its just all a bit 20th century managerialism speak for my taste. Im sure the SNUs doing a good job by its own lights but it aint anything that I would part with upwards of forty pounds a year to encouraage. My fll cover indemnity is only a bit more than that annually. SNU membership brings no tangible benefits as fae as I cab see and I serve some SNU ccauses. Very few of the folk one meets in those churhes are Class B paid up memberrs either.

I see managerialism as an inevitable partner to institutionalisation which inevitably happens when organisations grow.

There is a place for small churches, communities and groups but they are usually dependent on a few committed people who eventually leave through death, age or otherwise - and the group may end or roll on. It depends on the willingness and capacity of remaining members.

So people call for bigger groups and centralisation. Sometimes the law of the land also imposes regulations which small groups can't meet of their own accord so they join with others and move towards centralisation. This kind of process seems inevitable.

The bigger the organisation the more distant the central management group gets from the members. Problems begin to happen then. Also, people become interested in power and we all know that power is a difficult thing to manage. Ordinary members often hand over their own power to those who they trust to do the work and then get upset when things don't go as they want or the management and leadership go off the rails for one reason or another. Sometimes, also, the management roup have to make decisions for good reasons that others don't understand or like.

It's all pretty common stuff in organisations. Spiritualists churches are no different. From an outsider perspective, this seems to be what happened in the SNU and also in the Melbourne VSU.

Individuals have to decide what they want in all of this and how they can best preserve their own well-being and integrity in the organisations/churches to which they belong.

I guess what I've learned in different ways throughout things like this is to really value each moment of participation , opportunity and learning and to walk away when the time comes to let go. It is not as easy as it sounds, especially when one has become attached. .

Internal church politics so there`s sure to be more than one case to be made. Obviously confidentiality issues are involved and one can but sympathise with whoever at SNU gets the short straw and has to attempt some sort of resolution. I`m no fortune teller but watch and look for an additional spiritualist cause forming at Paignton probably non SNU. On a side but related issue _ The latest print copy subscription PN has yet to arrive chez nous but this hot news is on their website gratis. Why bother paying the hefty subs if they are giving news away for free on t'internet? Times is hard and wages low so I'll not be renewing if they keep this up. It's fiscal suicide, look what happened to the Guardian circulation when they were putting copy free online.

Hi Katy,

Its only that one which you can read and I suspect its regarded as important news. It certainly is not the only case I know where a decision is made by the duly elected committee, supported by the membership and then overturned by the complaints procedure. The fall out from Dalby Road, where the decision so decimated the church that it closed and was then sold to add to the funds still has ramifications.

Of course the SNU lost the legal case in Bristol but I understand thre are many more of these. I really suspect they may all get sold off to fund the progress of one minister per church.

Ministers schministers! Spiritualism needs an elite cadre like a fish needs a bicycle. Anyone can buy wedding and funeral officiant insurance and the more people who can officiate the better. Our church seceded from SNU one issue tipping the vote was some SNU character pontificating on their website vids whilst besporting a clerical shirt set off with a shiny SNU medallion on a ribbon. He looked like a low rent Bond movie villain albeit one spouting drivel. Ridiculous. Then again we're a big cause,own the building trust free and in a university city with more graduates than the demographic norm for a spiritualist church so SNU second ratism never washed that well. Anyone claiming to be a spiritualist turning up dressed up like a vicar would be laughed to scorn. Folk neither want nor need that archaic nonsense these days.

KatyKing wrote:Ministers schministers! Spiritualism needs an elite cadre like a fish needs a bicycle. Anyone can buy wedding and funeral officiant insurance and the more people who can officiate the better. Our church seceded from SNU one issue tipping the vote was some SNU character pontificating on their website vids whilst besporting a clerical shirt set off with a shiny SNU medallion on a ribbon. He looked like a low rent Bond movie villain albeit one spouting drivel. Ridiculous. Then again we're a big cause,own the building trust free and in a university city with more graduates than the demographic norm for a spiritualist church so SNU second ratism never washed that well. Anyone claiming to be a spiritualist turning up dressed up like a vicar would be laughed to scorn. Folk neither want nor need that archaic nonsense these days.

Excellent!

Ta

KatyKing wrote:Ministers schministers! Spiritualism needs an elite cadre like a fish needs a bicycle. Anyone can buy wedding and funeral officiant insurance and the more people who can officiate the better. Our church seceded from SNU one issue tipping the vote was some SNU character pontificating on their website vids whilst besporting a clerical shirt set off with a shiny SNU medallion on a ribbon. He looked like a low rent Bond movie villain albeit one spouting drivel. Ridiculous. Then again we're a big cause,own the building trust free and in a university city with more graduates than the demographic norm for a spiritualist church so SNU second ratism never washed that well. Anyone claiming to be a spiritualist turning up dressed up like a vicar would be laughed to scorn. Folk neither want nor need that archaic nonsense these days.

Brilliant

""Anyone claiming to be a spiritualist turning up dressed up like a vicar would be laughed to scorn. Folk neither want nor need that archaic nonsense these days."" KatyKing

Absolutely.

'By their fruits......'

obiwan wrote:

KatyKing wrote:Ministers schministers! Spiritualism needs an elite cadre like a fish needs a bicycle. Anyone can buy wedding and funeral officiant insurance and the more people who can officiate the better. Our church seceded from SNU one issue tipping the vote was some SNU character pontificating on their website vids whilst besporting a clerical shirt set off with a shiny SNU medallion on a ribbon. He looked like a low rent Bond movie villain albeit one spouting drivel. Ridiculous. Then again we're a big cause,own the building trust free and in a university city with more graduates than the demographic norm for a spiritualist church so SNU second ratism never washed that well. Anyone claiming to be a spiritualist turning up dressed up like a vicar would be laughed to scorn. Folk neither want nor need that archaic nonsense these days.

Excellent!

Yes, yes, yes! I couldn't agree with you more - well said. And, thank you for saying it. And well done to your church - I just wish there were more like you and your church willing to act.

Lis

Just had a nice email from Sue Farrow at PN who tells me that they are putting 'taster' items on the website to attract subscribers. What a good idea. I withdraw my grumpy comments about subscription rates.

Paranormal Review has gone very quiet of late.
Do hope Roy's OK.