Re: So nice to visit again.........

by petal34 Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:36 pm

Um....I did ponder on that side of it,Mac.

Some mediums have certain gifts and some have others.
Cheers.

by jock Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:02 pm

[b] I do not feel any medium has been given a Gift they have worked their socks off to atain the powers they possese. I have heard many say I cannot do that they oh have a gift and it is a cop out any-one who has compassion and puts the time in can be a medium. This is a fact what one person can do others can if they put thier mind and self So nice to visit again......... - Page 2 382644

So nice to visit again......... - Page 2 382644

to the quest.

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:24 pm

jock wrote:[b] I do not feel any medium has been given a Gift they have worked their socks off to atain the powers they possese. I have heard many say I cannot do that they oh have a gift and it is a cop out any-one who has compassion and puts the time in can be a medium. This is a fact what one person can do others can if they put thier mind and self to the quest.

What neither you, nor anyone else, can never know, Jock, is whether the one who's successful as a medium had the innate attribute from birth or if the one who tries but fails was lacking it.... Wink

It would not mater whether that success came as a result of years of hard work or whether it happened with seemingly little effort and we know that both situations are seen. You would probably say (I'd expect) that it was down to hard work in the former case and you could be right except that you'd still never know if that attribute was there from the outset. For anyone unsuccessful one might say they hadn't worked hard enough. Similar claims are made about the effort needed to become a successful physical medium.

Kinda like the faith healing issue - if you don't get better it's because you didn't have enough faith....

by jock Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:57 pm

[b] I cannot speak for others these are my observations I have found people who put the tlme in are sucessfull. The ongoing problem with PM is the only ones who report are the people who do it for material gain, PM is alive and well and is thiving in home groups who rarly report if they did they they know they would be berated for it. The Rita Gould afair is a prime example of that and it is documented up to a point on Michael Rolls site So nice to visit again......... - Page 2 382644

by petal34 Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:58 pm

What about those who have no faith,have the power and don't want it?

by jock Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:03 pm

People have freewill it is their right
http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/mediums/crossley/crossley_pn83-en.html

Please look at link and follow the story your selves

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:10 pm

jock wrote:[b] I cannot speak for others these are my observations I have found people who put the tlme in are sucessfull. The ongoing problem with PM is the only ones who report are the people who do it for material gain, PM is alive and well and is thiving in home groups who rarly report if they did they they know they would be berated for it. The Rita Gould afair is a prime example of that and it is documented up to a point on Michael Rolls site

I didn't ask that you speak for others, Jock, but none of your points answer my observations in any way. Innate attributes may be necessary for mediumship of any kind to develop was the most important of them.

Physical mediumship appears to be barely alive and is definitely little observed. Quite how you are able to know it's thriving in home groups of which you're not a member is beyond my ken....

Years back the NAS was an organising body for anyone with an interest in p.m. particularly active in providing help for aspiring physical mediums/groups. Yet it was finally forced to close after quite a time of seeming pm inactivity judged on the basis of what was being reported from its groups.

Of course one could claim that their activities were no longer being fed back to the NAS but you wouldn't be able to substatiate any such claim and why, one might ask, would groups go underground when there was such interest in supporting them?

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:59 pm

petal34 wrote:What about those who have no faith,have the power and don't want it?

As Jock mentions over the page, it's not something that anyone has to do....

Faith is not an issue as spiritual attributes - gifts if you prefer that term - are not impacted by one's beliefs. They may be ignored if one chooses but maybe those who have 'em feel a certain need to use them to the benefit of others? Perhaps that comes from a choice made before entering into / returning to this physical world?

Of course it may be regretted that these attributes are evident in oneself but as Jock points out, there is no compulsion to heed them....

by jock Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:53 pm

The NAS closed down when the priciple office bearers stood down without prior warning and no others would take up the Mantle. PM is thriving and all meaningfull groups are linked the only problem is one has to be in one or have acess to one.

by petal34 Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:21 pm

jock wrote:The NAS closed down when the priciple office bearers stood down without prior warning and no others would take up the Mantle. PM is thriving and all meaningfull groups are linked the only problem is one has to be in one or have acess to one.

Exactly.

by mac Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:30 pm

jock wrote:The NAS closed down when the priciple office bearers stood down without prior warning and no others would take up the Mantle. PM is thriving and all meaningfull groups are linked the only problem is one has to be in one or have acess to one.

And the reasons they stood down was what? Whatever the final reasons, prior to the dissolution there was little being reported through The Ark Review, appearing to indicate a lack of interest or involvement from those individuals or groups engaged in physical mediumship.

Again without details of "all meaningfull groups" it's difficult to judge for oneself if you are right, Jock, but assuming you are then it would be great to hear from them - anonymously if that's what they choose - about the state of their own groups/mediums.

On a purely personal level I'm interested only in their potential to bring the message of survival to those who are seeking it. I have no more interest in accessing a physical group than I have in accessing any other form of mediumship's group.

Perhaps you could encourage members of those groups you say are thriving and ask that they feed back through this, or another website, some accounts of their activities?

by synaxis Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:21 am

mac wrote:Nothing new here in Montacabirol - results are what count, not precautions.... Similarly the Feix Group.

I'm not saying that tying up the medium is anything new and that consequently the Montcabirol seances are of interest for this particular reason. Rather, in response to your claim that recent reports of physical mediumship are without any significance, I mentioned a 12-page testimonial by a reputable academic (Prof. Elaine Heiby) posted at the Montcabirol site in which she gives a credible account of the phenomena she witnessed. This was written by a highly trained clinical psychologist with an extensive peer-reviewed publication record.

http://spiritualismlink.forumotion.com/t1112p15-so-nice-to-visit-again#5935

Also, the Felix group publishes its "results" (photos, videos) online as mentioned before. This isn't conclusive proof, of course, for that one would have to go and investigate for oneself (why don't you go and then report back to this forum?). But, the online publishing of physical mediumship "results" in a blog is a rather different (and more open and democratic) approach to public dissemination.

mac wrote:Physical mediumship appears to be barely alive and is definitely little observed. Quite how you [jock] are able to know it's thriving in home groups of which you're not a member is beyond my ken.... Of course one could claim that their activities were no longer being fed back to the NAS but you wouldn't be able to substatiate any such claim and why, one might ask, would groups go underground when there was such interest in supporting them?

It doesn't seem that groups have gone underground. I think it's obvious if one makes an effort to look at what is being posted on the internet (which of course provides only a glimpse of what is going on) that there is a set of circles practicing physical mediumship who are aware of each other. I previously mentioned the Montcabirol site in France which has a photo of a visiting UK circle on its home page. Also a group called the Bristol Spirit Lodge posts ongoing results from physical mediumship circles (links below).

At least it seems clear that dedicated groups are sitting for development. As I said before, if one loses the foundational structure of Spiritualism, the home circle, then there's nothing for Spirit (or a team of spirits) to interact with. It's not about physical phenomena in the first instance, but gathering a group of people who are committed to sit regularly for development and persist for some time. I recall reading that the FEG group, which has been operational for several years, had to advertise for sitters initially.

Re: the report on the SNU AGM, the internet evidence of active circles makes clear that it is unnecessary to participate in this organization.

http://www.montcabirol.com/
http://felixcircle.blogspot.com/
http://spirit-lodge-diary.blogspot.com/
http://spiritofpn.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/snu-agm-2011/

by petal34 Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:52 am

One question!

Why do mediums have to be forcibly 'tied up' at all?

Doubt? Proof that they are genuine?
Any other reasons?

I am asking this in all innocence,not taking one side or the other.

by synaxis Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:30 am

petal34 wrote:One question!

Why do mediums have to be forcibly 'tied up' at all?

Doubt? Proof that they are genuine?
Any other reasons?

I am asking this in all innocence,not taking one side or the other.

The medium isn't forcibly restrained, but accepts restraint in order to "secure" the evidential quality of the manifestations, i.e. to exclude the possibility of fraud, which historically has been a problem on occasion with physical mediumship.

I would highly recommend reading Alec Harris: The full story of his remarkable physical mediumship (new ed. 2009) by his wife Louie Harris to get a sense of what happens in a physical mediumship circle (at its best). Alec Harris died in 1974 and I have to wonder whether physical phenomena at this level are still occurring.

by petal34 Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:40 am

Alec Harris,I have never read any of his books.

I am a member of another site where there is a great deal of information about him.
A greatly respected medium,as well.

I know some of my questions sound a bit ignorant but I tend to dig below the surface to find answers.
I can understand the tying of bonds if the general public were admitted (I can accept the public doubting a great deal).
But where there were only private members admitted,I would have thought there would have be no doubt.

Thanks Synaxis.

by synaxis Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:30 pm

petal34 wrote:Alec Harris,I have never read any of his books.

I am a member of another site where there is a great deal of information about him.
A greatly respected medium,as well.

I know some of my questions sound a bit ignorant but I tend to dig below the surface to find answers.
I can understand the tying of bonds if the general public were admitted (I can accept the public doubting a great deal).
But where there were only private members admitted,I would have thought there would have be no doubt.

Thanks Synaxis.

If you read the Alec Harris book, you'll see that his circle regularly received visitors (as does the Montcabirol group). If one is not a regular member and especially if proof of survival is important (e.g. in the event that someone materializes who has passed on and is known to one of the visitors) then the evidential quality of the manifestation would be important.

by mac Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:44 pm

OK Synaxis, I accept all you're saying about the groups but in response I say so what?

What is happening that is demonstrating evidence of survival? Where is the public outlet of the results they're achieving? Who has attended their sittings and received evidence of the survival of family or friends.....?

If the accounts are out there I'd be very grateful if you'd point me in their direction. To repeat, I'm not interested in the least in the production of physical phenomena in themselves but only as waymarkers to progress in eventually achieving evidential mediumship.

Too often it appears that the phenomena are the source of excitement and interest. Is that your position?

by petal34 Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:30 pm

synaxis wrote:
petal34 wrote:Alec Harris,I have never read any of his books.

I am a member of another site where there is a great deal of information about him.
A greatly respected medium,as well.

I know some of my questions sound a bit ignorant but I tend to dig below the surface to find answers.
I can understand the tying of bonds if the general public were admitted (I can accept the public doubting a great deal).
But where there were only private members admitted,I would have thought there would have be no doubt.

Thanks Synaxis.
If you read the Alec Harris book, you'll see that his circle regularly received visitors (as does the Montcabirol group). If one is not a regular member and especially if proof of survival is important (e.g. in the event that someone materializes who has passed on and is known to one of the visitors) then the evidential quality of the manifestation would be important.

I watched a video of him some time ago and was very impressed indeed.
Now there is one medium I would give my right hand to see.
Proof of survival would be very important to me,I do hate when information is given out of some far off friend who I haven't seen for ages or completely lost touch with.
I am not saying that is not proof,but how do we judge what is proof and what isn't?
Description of someone that one has known, have been given to me,nowhere like the person I have known.
That has included their name as well.
But I lie,one medium I have known for quite a while,not very well known and does not push for fame or fortune.
He is the only one I have trusted to gave explicit proof.
Cheers

by synaxis Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:26 pm

mac wrote:OK Synaxis, I accept all you're saying about the groups but in response I say so what?

What is happening that is demonstrating evidence of survival? Where is the public outlet of the results they're achieving? Who has attended their sittings and received evidence of the survival of family or friends.....?

If the accounts are out there I'd be very grateful if you'd point me in their direction. To repeat, I'm not interested in the least in the production of physical phenomena in themselves but only as waymarkers to progress in eventually achieving evidential mediumship.

Too often it appears that the phenomena are the source of excitement and interest. Is that your position?

Hey, Mac ... I've already made reference to the testimonials posted at Montcabirol, including one account in particular. There's lots of stuff posted at the Felix site (photos, videos, etc). The circles associated with the Bristol Spirit Lodge are also posting the results of their sittings online. If you want to verify their activities, I think you're going to have to look into this material - I've provided links to the sites. If you don't find what you're looking for you might contact them and ask about their aspirations or even arrange a visit.

Here's the link to a video synopsis of several seances involving the Felix group with some dramatic table tipping/levitation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGo9sHBhks

I think that providing evidence of survival is only one limited facet of spiritualism. Healing is another. Also, William Stainton Moses' sittings produced a large output of automatic writing, which was more a kind of spiritual teaching. Perhaps spiritualism needs to reinvent itself relative to the needs of society today, given the current crisis.

Also, I think one has to keep in mind that a lot of this activity is experimental and exploratory - on both sides, i.e. also with the communicating spirits themselves. For example, Heiby mentioned that they were told that the manifestations at one of the Montcabirol seances were created with the combined energy of the medium and sitters, not from ectoplasm extruded by the medium.

What's interesting from my perspective is the possibility of new directions and developments in the context of a collaborative effort with spirit aimed at making a contribution to the betterment of humanity.

by synaxis Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:44 pm

petal34 wrote:I watched a video of him some time ago and was very impressed indeed.
Now there is one medium I would give my right hand to see.
Proof of survival would be very important to me,I do hate when information is given out of some far off friend who I haven't seen for ages or completely lost touch with.
I am not saying that is not proof,but how do we judge what is proof and what isn't?
Description of someone that one has known, have been given to me,nowhere like the person I have known.
That has included their name as well.
But I lie,one medium I have known for quite a while,not very well known and does not push for fame or fortune.
He is the only one I have trusted to gave explicit proof.
Cheers

I think there are objective criteria that one can use to assess whether or not the presented evidence is sufficient to "prove" the phenomenon being experienced. One reason why the account by Professor Elaine Heiby of her experience at Montcabirol is of particular interest is that she has the intellectual training to make that kind of assessment.

Also, there are different degrees of proof: evidence can be more or less 'compelling' and may not be strong enough to constitute "proof" at all. I find this especially important to keep in mind with mental mediumship, which frequently seems to fall short of being "evidential" in my experience.

I'd be interested in watching the video of Alec Harris if it's available online ...

by petal34 Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:45 pm

It's quite a long time since I watched the video of Alec Harris.
It was an interview on telly and I am almost certain it was on U-Tube.
Check the net and see if you can find it.

I am on another site,pretty quiet like most sites are today but they have a good history of Alec Harris plus other well known mediums.
The owner of the site has met and worked with him.

As I said previously,I have had no experience of PM,never seen a demonstration at all.
I am not new to spiritualism but only to a certain degree.
I have a few 'gifts' nothing like full mediumship.
I hear spirit but do not see them,except in lucid dreams.
That's about my lot,not much at all.
Joan

by mac Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:41 pm

"What's interesting from my perspective is the possibility of new directions and developments in the context of a collaborative effort with spirit aimed at making a contribution to the betterment of humanity."

This is virtually equivalent to the mission statement of the New Spiritual Science Foundation some years ago - much the same was promised and failed to materialise in the longer term.

Take a look at the Solomons' book if you don't know ~~their~~ that story...

ps The Foys (Scole Experiment) have also been (or still are, I'm not sure) involved with the Felix Group's activities.

by obiwan Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:46 pm

I'd settle for mediums who can give actual evidence.

by mac Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:14 pm

synaxis wrote:
mac wrote:OK Synaxis, I accept all you're saying about the groups but in response I say so what?

What is happening that is demonstrating evidence of survival? Where is the public outlet of the results they're achieving? Who has attended their sittings and received evidence of the survival of family or friends.....?

If the accounts are out there I'd be very grateful if you'd point me in their direction. To repeat, I'm not interested in the least in the production of physical phenomena in themselves but only as waymarkers to progress in eventually achieving evidential mediumship.

Too often it appears that the phenomena are the source of excitement and interest. Is that your position?
Hey, Mac ... I've already made reference to the testimonials posted at Montcabirol, including one account in particular. There's lots of stuff posted at the Felix site (photos, videos, etc). The circles associated with the Bristol Spirit Lodge are also posting the results of their sittings online. If you want to verify their activities, I think you're going to have to look into this material - I've provided links to the sites. If you don't find what you're looking for you might contact them and ask about their aspirations or even arrange a visit.

Here's the link to a video synopsis of several seances involving the Felix group with some dramatic table tipping/levitation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGo9sHBhks

I think that providing evidence of survival is only one limited facet of spiritualism. Healing is another. Also, William Stainton Moses' sittings produced a large output of automatic writing, which was more a kind of spiritual teaching. Perhaps spiritualism needs to reinvent itself relative to the needs of society today, given the current crisis.

Also, I think one has to keep in mind that a lot of this activity is experimental and exploratory - on both sides, i.e. also with the communicating spirits themselves. For example, Heiby mentioned that they were told that the manifestations at one of the Montcabirol seances were created with the combined energy of the medium and sitters, not from ectoplasm extruded by the medium.

What's interesting from my perspective is the possibility of new directions and developments in the context of a collaborative effort with spirit aimed at making a contribution to the betterment of humanity.

I've taken a brief look at the mass of information put out by the Bristol Lodge group - I agree there may be some evidence of survival there so this group does appear to be achieving what I had asked about.

quote "I think that providing evidence of survival is only one limited facet of spiritualism. Healing is another. Also, William Stainton Moses' sittings produced a large output of automatic writing, which was more a kind of spiritual teaching. Perhaps spiritualism needs to reinvent itself relative to the needs of society today, given the current crisis."

Please correct me if I have this wrong but I don't recall relating any of the physical phenomena stuff to Modern Spiritualism, an altogether different emphasis.... I thoroughly disagree that, quote: "....providing evidence of survival is only one limited facet of spiritualism" Indeed I'd go so far as to say it is its principle function and in no way it is a limited facet. The historical, teaching information from William Stanton Moses is simply part of the overall information about survival gained in many ways from many communicators. Healing is also valuable but Modern Spiritualism is only one place where spiritual healers may be found......

Perhaps I need again to stress that I'm a staunch Modern Spiritualist who has for a long time, and still does, bang the drum for the movement. I'm not a detractor nor am I a beginner in the Spiritualism field. I've written extensively about mediumship but I'm not impressed by any particular form. Each has its own specific value and provided that each provide evidence of identity, and information which can be authenticated, then I support all forms equally enthusiastically.

Perhaps I'm a purist but with a modicum of experience, exposure and learning I do feel that I pretty-well know what Modern Spiritualism is about. The production of physical phenomena (table-tipping, lights, raps and knocks for example) by themselves without leading on to evidential mediumship is a pointless, trite exercise albeit one which appears to appeal to some perhaps more interested in the phenomena than in the message of survival.

I asked you earlier, what is your primary interest?

by mac Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:26 pm

obiwan wrote:I'd settle for mediums who can give actual evidence.

I agree, my duck friend. Smile

In fact I'd say that only when there's evidence is it mediumship, but I've been down that dead-end road on forum boards and won't repeat.

For anyone feeling confused, the production of physical phenomena traditionally needs a 'physical medium' to bring them about. Where the process stops at their production - when there is no evidence of the involvement of discarnates and no communication with them - it's debatable what mechanisms are in use.

That's not to say that physical phenomena have no paranormal interest or value but if there isn't evidential mediumship as a consequence, then it ain't physical mediumship in my book.....

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